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All rights reserved. Altova, XMLSpy, MapForce, StyleVision, SemanticWorks, SchemaAgent, UModel, DiffDog, and Authentic are trademarks and/or registered trademarks of Altova GmbH in the United States and/or other countries. The names of and reference to other companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners. Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:00:00 EDT Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:00:00 EDT Authentic RSS Editor, visit www.altova.com for details pr@altova.com webmaster@altova.com http://www.altova.com/images/logos/altova_right_120.gif http://www.altova.com/ 120 24 Altova Logo I Like My camelCase Besides its camelCase not "CamelCase" Maybe "camel-hypenCase_Under-scoreCase.is_BeTer" But do you prefix it with "_" or "s" or "m" if its a private, static, or member variable ? Thankfully Hungarian has lost its charm ... I could never figure out what to do with an _pidwulshString variable when I changed it to simply char* ... I remember an interview with Stroustrup where he advocated under_score_case and thought camelCase was a bastard. Those with opinions .. will they never stop pontificating !' I dont particularly like hyphen-case because I can't tell it apart from "hyphen" <minus> "case" even if the compiler can. ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org From: Uche Ogbuji [mailto:uche@ogbuji.net] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:18 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Should one adopt the tag naming convention of an existing XML vocabulary or create one's own tag naming convention? On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Andrew Welch <andrew.j.welch@gmail.com> wrote: > Here are two possibilities: > > 1. I will create a my own tag naming convention, independent of the XML vocabularies that I will use. > > 2. I will adopt the tag naming convention of one of the XML vocabularies that I will use. (Which one?) > > What do you recommend? There is only one way :) names should be all lower-case, with hyphen as a separator. Camel case, or any thing else really, are awful for xml. I strongly agree, but of course this one is a very subjective matter. I curse Java for its propagation of the CamelCase eyesore. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Weblog: http://copia.ogbuji.net Poetry ed @TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324477.html On Fri, 2012-02-03 at 14:48 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am sampling some standard XML vocabularies to see what naming > convention they use. Below is what I've compiled thus far. What naming > convention do you use? > > 1. XML Schema: all elements and attributes are camel case. Examples: > maxOccurs, elementFormDefault, substitutionGroup. This convention for XML names translate most easily into most non-XML programming languages. > > 2. XSLT: all elements and attributes are lower-case, dash-separated. > Examples: apply-templates, exclude-result-prefixes, analyze-string. If you do this, you need to have a data binding convention such as mapping aaa-bbb to aaaBbbb or aaa_bbb. This happens much more frequently with Schema than with XSLT, so that may explain the difference. Of course, if you want to exchange arbitrary names between XML and some other language, you're likely to need some sort of escaping method or translation convention at some point, so camelCase just lets you do a crappier initial data binding design :-) No opinion here on Schematron. I don't believe we (W3C) have a policy about name syntax. The Dutch parliament has a policy forbidding men from wearing white socks, but I doubt it affects the quality of their legislation. Liam PS: some people in this discussion have confused some terms. XML admits of only three different tag names: open, close, and empty. But you can define your own element names and attribute names... it's worth being clear about the distinction, not because of pedantry (despite mention of socks) but because _tags_ are about the text-based interchange format of XML, and elements are about the logical structure. Understanding the difference is part of the Nine-fold Path of Enlightagment in using XML and XSLT. -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324476.html " I have always found context and end users to be the driving force, when a "standard" DTD was not available." Yes. Given a local set of practices in layout, you can extract enough information from the style name and text to build back up to richly tagged information. Again, the virtue of XML is what can be usefully done with a handful of GUI and free code. A fellow published the DocToXML code on a site and it gave a good way to get a basic task done. Take it as a starting point and build to it. Did that. Easy. Cheap. Works. I've been using this method and it works given basic XML utilities. Do it all on the desktop. When at this chore, ignore the web. Let the browser be the browser. len -----Original Message----- From: W. Hugh Chatfield [mailto:csi2000@urbanmarket.com] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:28 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org; Costello, Roger L. Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Should one adopt the tag naming convention of anexisting XMLvocabulary or create one's own tag naming convention? What I know from my past projects is that the naming conventions depend a lot on what you are trying to model with the DTD, and the end users of your model.  (assuming DTD here - but could be schemas, etc.  these project were from way back). For example, the CALS DTD.  THe US CALS DTD was basically a model of the "documents" being produced.  In other words, they used text concepts like volume, chapter, section, para, table, etc. When I worked on the CALS DTD for Canada it was decided the DTD would be a model of "equipment" not "documents" - hence there were tags  introduced for concepts like assembly (recursive) and for each assembly there were parts list, trouble shooting tables, equipment description, repair instructions, etc.  Sure ultimately, when the content wound up as "text", it made sense to use textual tags - section, para, etc. - and there we could have adopted common tag names - but even these would have specific equipment tags in the mixed content sections.  Tables weren't columns and rows, they were symptoms, test procedure, repair procedure, etc. - but were still rendered as a table. When working with the Department of Justice - it was decide to use tag names that the authors of legislative text (lawyers and legal specialists) already understood and were in use from authoring all the way through parliament.  This was before any generic legislative DTDs hit the market.  We tried to minimize the disruption in the authoring process on the switch from a highly customized older version of Word-Perfect to SGML. So I have always found context and end users to be the driving force, when a "standard" DTD was not available.  Maybe if you are trying to decide a tag name from 3 different vocabularies, you would pick the one with the greatest degree of fit to your end user... whatever degree of fit might mean in your environment. Cheers....Hugh UBL is in your future....  http://goUBL.com On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:14:24 +0000, "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Hi Folks, > > I am about to create an XML vocabulary. > > My XML vocabulary will leverage (reuse) three existing, mature XML > vocabularies. > > So my XML instances will consist of tags that I created and tags from > the existing, mature XML vocabularies. > > For the tags that I create, what tag naming convention should I use? > Here are two possibilities: > > 1. I will create a my own tag naming convention, independent of the > XML vocabularies that I will use. > > 2. I will adopt the tag naming convention of one of the XML > vocabularies that I will use. (Which one?) > > What do you recommend? What are the tradeoffs? > > /Roger >   _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324475.html All very good but how shall we choose? The virtue of XML is that with minimal coding skills and a handful of GUI, you can create tools that do useful work for you. The challenge is doing it for others. len -----Original Message----- From: Robin Cover [mailto:robin@oasis-open.org] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 1:09 PM To: Costello, Roger L.; xml-dev@lists.xml.org Cc: Robin Cover Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Naming conventions for a sampling of W3C and ISO XML vocabularies Roger, the following resources might be of interest. Both are (way) out of date, but provide reasonable samples for the specified coverage. 1. Naming and Design Rules http://xml.coverpages.org/ndr.html Naming and Design Rules (NDR) Specifications - ACORD Naming and Design Rules (NDR) - Danish XML Project: OIOXML Naming and Design Rules - EPA Exchange Network XML Design Rules and Conventions - Federal XML Naming and Design Rules Project - Global Justice XML Data Model (GJXDM) Naming and Design Rules - Hong Kong OGCIO Interoperability Framework for E-Government - IRS XML Naming and Design Rules - OAGIS Naming and Design Rules (NDR) - OASIS LegalXML Exchange Document Methodology, Naming, and Design Rules (MNDR) Subcommittee - Universal Business Language (UBL) Naming and Design Rules - UN/CEFACT XML Naming and Design Rules Technical Specification - US Department of the Navy XML Naming and Design Rules - US National Information Exchange Model (NIEM) NDR 2. Use of Camel Case for Naming XML and XML-Related Components http://xml.coverpages.org/camelCase.html - Robin On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Hi Folks, I am sampling some standard XML vocabularies to see what naming convention they use. Below is what I've compiled thus far. What naming convention do you use? 1. XML Schema: all elements and attributes are camel case. Examples: maxOccurs, elementFormDefault, substitutionGroup. 2. XSLT: all elements and attributes are lower-case, dash-separated. Examples: apply-templates, exclude-result-prefixes, analyze-string. 3. Schematron: most elements and attributes are a single, lower-case word (e.g., assert, rule, pattern). There is an element and an attribute with multiple words (value-of, is-a). There are two elements that use camel case (queryBinding and defaultPhase). Notice that Schematron isn't consistent in its naming convention. Is that a bad thing? Is it a good thing to have a consistent naming convention? Why does XML Schema and XSLT have different naming conventions? They are both W3C technologies. Does the W3C not have a policy on naming markup? /Roger _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php -- Robin Cover OASIS, Director of Information Services Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink Email: robin@oasis-open.org Staff bio: http://www.oasis-open.org/people/staff/robin-cover Cover Pages: http://xml.coverpages.org/ Newsletter: http://xml.coverpages.org/newsletterArchive.html Tel: +1 972-296-1783]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324474.html True. On the other hand, there are long lived lists such as this that can work on learning. Always has. A digital blessing but a real goal of most of the people I've met that are real XML hackers. Nature of the technology: human negotiated, hardware implemented, hardware independent. The requirements for the system determine the makeup of the community that builds it. Guilds are ecosystem constructs. IME, guilds best nations where innovation is the objective. The humans are at their best when they self-select. len -----Original Message----- From: Peter Flynn [mailto:peter@silmaril.ie] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:26 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > Before the internet, the level of ignorance in the US about > anything happening outside the US was staggering. Still is, in places. As is the level of ignorance our side of the pond about things like the upcoming US presidential election :-) ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324473.html Which is how the IADS designers with a prototype of the features of XML AND markup style sheets with a validation and built in editor (a not well-explored design, really) felt about Mosaic and the SGML community felt about IADS (didn't require a DTD: wasn't SGML de facto). Dems da breaks. Both systems do useful work as in the users can produce the deliverables in the CDRLs with a low rate of defects returned for budget hours consumed. Mediocre systems service insecure managers. Simple systems that just work service any user. len -----Original Message----- From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike@saxonica.com] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:59 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > but they made the same mistake I have so often made myself - bad things do catch on. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324472.html >2. I will adopt the tag naming convention of one of the XML vocabularies that I will use. (Which one?) Well, when XPath met XML Schema in XPath 2.0, we used both, and ended up with names like format-dateTime. Which at one level is totally logical, and at another level is just weird. There is no right answer. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324471.html >Soften it a little and consider IBM (I believe: Len? Michael?) who were building a precursor to what would eventually become the foundations of Latin-1. Right down somewhere near the bottom right-hand corner came the ÿ (yuml) character, which is used in French, and mostly in the names of some towns, but so rarely that even some French people are unaware of it, as I discovered when I asked some French LaTeX typesetters. I believe that the main influence on ECMA-72 which became Latin-1 which became iso-8859-1 was actually DEC Multinational, developed for the vt220 terminal; though a couple of characters were substituted. The way in which these decisions are made would be a fascinating study. I heard a tale that the IBM PC keyboard layout was dreamt up by a fairly junior engineer with no knowledge either of the years of effort to standardise keyboard layouts or of the extensive ergonomic and usability studies designed to maximize the performance of keyboard users. The resulting lost productivity must be costing us billions. But then, someone has to decide. The Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans had been arguing for years about how to code ideographic characters, and in the end Xerox and a few Californian friends decided to tell them the answer. My friends in Japan told me they did such a bad job that it would never catch on, but they made the same mistake I have so often made myself - bad things do catch on. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324470.html On 02/02/12 09:18, Michael Kay wrote: [me] >> A lot of this stuff was still relatively new, and only a few people >> were thinking of non-European or non-Latin-alphabet languages. > > I don't think that's true. Vast numbers of people were thinking about > them, but they weren't in California, and no-one in California took any > notice. You're right -- I phrased that badly. Only a few people _who were directly involved at the time_. I can only speak to the areas I was involved in (HTML and XML) but the i18n push certainly appeared to be coming from a minority. I am told it was similar in other fields. > Before the internet, the level of ignorance in the US about > anything happening outside the US was staggering. Still is, in places. As is the level of ignorance our side of the pond about things like the upcoming US presidential election :-) ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324469.html On 03/02/12 12:53, Tei wrote: > He!... mediocrity is not always bad. > > Say... databases. Almost all web applications are built using > relational databases. Not all applications need a database. But web > applications are soehorn to use relational databases anyway. Tell me about it. I worked with some Oracle guys. They're really good, and seriously know their stuff, but ask them to add 2+2 and they'll define a table with two variables, write a screen to capture two values and stuff them into the table, then write a stored procedure to retrieve the values, add them, and format a report to print the result. They are perfectly aware of other ways of doing this, and it's not as if they don't have access to tools other than hammers, but I have seen one of them populate a HTML select element of five options by pulling the data from a specially-written table, for data which won't change in my lifetime (Mr/Ms/Mrs/Miss/Dr). So how do we extend this to the philosophical choices faced with XML, HTTP, or anything else? First off, it's scale. Hard-coding a web-form visitor's choice of title isn't a big deal, and if you need to add Rev, or if you get assimilated by the BBC and need to add Lord and Lady, that's not a big deal either; nor is it a big deal doing it in the database, modulo some small penalty in retrieval and dependency. Convincing programmers to soft-code something large and mutable isn't hard either, like the set of ISO 3166 country codes, or the 639 language codes (or whatever the current suite is, I haven't looked at them for years). They can see the need for it, so the second clue is perception. We got 2-letter country TLDs when we could have used the 3-letter set and stayed the same length as .gov, .mil, .edu, .org, and .com. Doesn't matter a whole lot unless we end up with 26×26 nation states on the planet. But 2-letter language codes don't scale: there are way more than 676 languages on this earth. So eventually you get down to the third factor: judgement, which is based on knowledge and a shedload of other things. Programmer X speaks only Klingon, and doesn't really know much about other languages except for the existence of a few of them, high and far off; and certainly doesn't really care that anyone speaking Sindarin would ever have need to access the Internet, let alone in their own language. That's a harsh view, and mercifully rarer nowadays. Soften it a little and consider IBM (I believe: Len? Michael?) who were building a precursor to what would eventually become the foundations of Latin-1. Right down somewhere near the bottom right-hand corner came the ÿ (yuml) character, which is used in French, and mostly in the names of some towns, but so rarely that even some French people are unaware of it, as I discovered when I asked some French LaTeX typesetters. The ŵ character (wcirc), which is used daily by 3 million Welsh speakers didn't appear to get a look in until Latin-2. So whats close to and up front tends to have more effect on what we decide -- when nothing else intervenes -- than what is high and far off. That's why it's good to have people who are able to take the longer view, with deeper knowledge, who can warn when things are likely to break if they don't take certain factors into account. They won't always be heeded, as Michael says, and we'll always be able to look back with regret on things we should have done differently, but I think it *is* improving a little: I see projects now which *do* take things into account that 20 years ago would (were) laughed out of the water. So how much attention should we pay to charsets? It turns out, *lots*. But like my Oracle programmers, we have a bunch of knowledge on one side, and a bunch of tools on the other, and they all work, many even in the whole of Unicode, but we can't envisage the scale of demand for building that capability into every aspect of what we write, so we stick with what we know works. It's wrong, it will break, perhaps disastrously, and it will upset and affect lots of people, but right there and then it would have taken an order of magnitude longer to do it right. Perhaps we can learn from history for once :-) ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324468.html Now the DTDs are huge polyglots that mix the two concepts of content and structural naming. The rear tabular matter is mostly content named. The front matter (eg, maintenance procedures, theory of ops) tend to be all structural names (chapter, volume, etc.). The CALS tables are still in there but there are fewer of them. It's an interesting panoply of every approach we've tried. A more interesting question asked before and answered by folks like Eliot Kimber is when one should use XML type ids and idrefs. I used to say there was no cost to having an id so go ahead, but that isn't really true and I was wrong. A #REQUIRED ID is... required and when one has to manually scrub a large file, these little bits of cruft become odious. len Quoting "W. Hugh Chatfield" <csi2000@urbanmarket.com>: > What I know from my past projects is that the naming conventions > depend a lot on what you are trying to model with the DTD, and the > end users of your model.  (assuming DTD here - but could be schemas, > etc.  these project were from way back). For example, the CALS DTD. >  THe US CALS DTD was basically a model of the "documents" being > produced.  In other words, they used text concepts like volume, > chapter, section, para, table, etc. When I worked on the CALS DTD > for Canada it was decided the DTD would be a model of "equipment" > not "documents" - hence there were tags  introduced for concepts > like assembly (recursive) and for each assembly there were parts > list, trouble shooting tables, equipment description, repair > instructions, etc.  Sure ultimately, when the content wound up as > "text", it made sense to use textual tags - section, para, etc. - > and there we could have adopted common tag names - but even these > would have specific equipment tags in the mixed content sections. >  Tables weren't columns and rows, they were symptoms, test > procedure, repair procedure, etc. - but were still rendered as a > table. When working with the Department of Justice - it was decide > to use tag names that the authors of legislative text (lawyers and > legal specialists) already understood and were in use from authoring > all the way through parliament.  This was before any generic > legislative DTDs hit the market.  We tried to minimize the > disruption in the authoring process on the switch from a highly > customized older version of Word-Perfect to SGML. So I have always > found context and end users to be the driving force, when a > "standard" DTD was not available.  Maybe if you are trying to decide > a tag name from 3 different vocabularies, you would pick the one > with the greatest degree of fit to your end user... whatever degree > of fit might mean in your environment. Cheers....Hugh > > UBL is in your future....  http://goUBL.com > > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:14:24 +0000, "Costello, Roger L." > <costello@mitre.org> wrote: > Hi Folks, >> >> I am about to create an XML vocabulary. My XML vocabulary will >> leverage (reuse) three existing, mature XML vocabularies. So my XML >> instances will consist of tags that I created and tags from the >> existing, mature XML vocabularies. For the tags that I create, what >> tag naming convention should I use? Here are two possibilities: >> >> 1. I will create a my own tag naming convention, independent of the >> XML vocabularies that I will use. 2. I will adopt the tag naming >> convention of one of the XML vocabularies that I will use. (Which >> one?) >> >> What do you recommend? What are the tradeoffs? >> >> /Roger >>   > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324467.html Purely selfishly, I use the underscore (nods to Andrew) if I plan to use the name in microparsing. Spaces are unreliable (people don't notice double spaces, single quotes disappear to aging eyes, underscores when doubled are human-eye noticeable. A split function using an underscore is easy to see in the code that does the microparsing. That said, I tend to camel_Case XML as a typing habit. I would hazard a guess that camel_Case is a side effect of scanning lots of tags by eye and needing to sort out the sub-names inside the case. I think that easier. For the machine, someone else has to make the case for the Case. I'm not sure it's useful in that regard. In the system I'm working today, the locals giggled at the underscores in the file names claiming they were so "old school" and that "spaces are modern". I let them have back the 3000+ files with an extra space in one of the file names. Here's one for you, Roger: do you think file names should preserve the names of the systems tracking the system in line before them or rename for the system the follows? IOW, do we push names forward or track them backward? I have my own story but I'd like to hear what you think? As with granularity, there are practical reasons for choosing. len Quoting "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org>: > Hi Folks, > > I am sampling some standard XML vocabularies to see what naming > convention they use. Below is what I've compiled thus far. What > naming convention do you use? > > 1. XML Schema: all elements and attributes are camel case. Examples: > maxOccurs, elementFormDefault, substitutionGroup. > > 2. XSLT: all elements and attributes are lower-case, dash-separated. > Examples: apply-templates, exclude-result-prefixes, analyze-string. > > 3. Schematron: most elements and attributes are a single, lower-case > word (e.g., assert, rule, pattern). There is an element and an > attribute with multiple words (value-of, is-a). There are two > elements that use camel case (queryBinding and defaultPhase). > > Notice that Schematron isn't consistent in its naming convention. Is > that a bad thing? Is it a good thing to have a consistent naming > convention? > > Why does XML Schema and XSLT have different naming conventions? They > are both W3C technologies. Does the W3C not have a policy on naming > markup? > > /Roger > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324466.html What I know from my past projects is that the naming conventions depend a lot on what you are trying to model with the DTD, and the end users of your model.  (assuming DTD here - but could be schemas, etc.  these project were from way back). For example, the CALS DTD.  THe US CALS DTD was basically a model of the "documents" being produced.  In other words, they used text concepts like volume, chapter, section, para, table, etc. When I worked on the CALS DTD for Canada it was decided the DTD would be a model of "equipment" not "documents" - hence there were tags  introduced for concepts like assembly (recursive) and for each assembly there were parts list, trouble shooting tables, equipment description, repair instructions, etc.  Sure ultimately, when the content wound up as "text", it made sense to use textual tags - section, para, etc. - and there we could have adopted common tag names - but even these would have specific equipment tags in the mixed content sections.  Tables weren't columns and rows, they were symptoms, test procedure, repair procedure, etc. - but were still rendered as a table. When working with the Department of Justice - it was decide to use tag names that the authors of legislative text (lawyers and legal specialists) already understood and were in use from authoring all the way through parliament.  This was before any generic legislative DTDs hit the market.  We tried to minimize the disruption in the authoring process on the switch from a highly customized older version of Word-Perfect to SGML. So I have always found context and end users to be the driving force, when a "standard" DTD was not available.  Maybe if you are trying to decide a tag name from 3 different vocabularies, you would pick the one with the greatest degree of fit to your end user... whatever degree of fit might mean in your environment. Cheers....Hugh UBL is in your future....  http://goUBL.com On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:14:24 +0000, "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Hi Folks, > > I am about to create an XML vocabulary. > > My XML vocabulary will leverage (reuse) three existing, mature XML > vocabularies. > > So my XML instances will consist of tags that I created and tags from > the existing, mature XML vocabularies. > > For the tags that I create, what tag naming convention should I use? > Here are two possibilities: > > 1. I will create a my own tag naming convention, independent of the > XML vocabularies that I will use. > > 2. I will adopt the tag naming convention of one of the XML > vocabularies that I will use. (Which one?) > > What do you recommend? What are the tradeoffs? > > /Roger >   _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324465.html On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Andrew Welch <andrew.j.welch@gmail.com>wrote: > > Here are two possibilities: > > > > 1. I will create a my own tag naming convention, independent of the XML > vocabularies that I will use. > > > > 2. I will adopt the tag naming convention of one of the XML vocabularies > that I will use. (Which one?) > > > > What do you recommend? > > > There is only one way :) names should be all lower-case, with hyphen > as a separator. Camel case, or any thing else really, are awful for > xml. > I strongly agree, but of course this one is a very subjective matter. I curse Java for its propagation of the CamelCase eyesore. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Weblog: http://copia.ogbuji.net Poetry ed @TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324464.html > Here are two possibilities: > > 1. I will create a my own tag naming convention, independent of the XML vocabularies that I will use. > > 2. I will adopt the tag naming convention of one of the XML vocabularies that I will use. (Which one?) > > What do you recommend? There is only one way :) names should be all lower-case, with hyphen as a separator. Camel case, or any thing else really, are awful for xml. -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324463.html Hi Folks, I am about to create an XML vocabulary. My XML vocabulary will leverage (reuse) three existing, mature XML vocabularies. So my XML instances will consist of tags that I created and tags from the existing, mature XML vocabularies. For the tags that I create, what tag naming convention should I use? Here are two possibilities: 1. I will create a my own tag naming convention, independent of the XML vocabularies that I will use. 2. I will adopt the tag naming convention of one of the XML vocabularies that I will use. (Which one?) What do you recommend? What are the tradeoffs? /Roger _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324462.html Roger, the following resources might be of interest. Both are (way) out of date, but provide reasonable samples for the specified coverage. 1. Naming and Design Rules http://xml.coverpages.org/ndr.html Naming and Design Rules (NDR) Specifications - ACORD Naming and Design Rules (NDR) - Danish XML Project: OIOXML Naming and Design Rules - EPA Exchange Network XML Design Rules and Conventions - Federal XML Naming and Design Rules Project - Global Justice XML Data Model (GJXDM) Naming and Design Rules - Hong Kong OGCIO Interoperability Framework for E-Government - IRS XML Naming and Design Rules - OAGIS Naming and Design Rules (NDR) - OASIS LegalXML Exchange Document Methodology, Naming, and Design Rules (MNDR) Subcommittee - Universal Business Language (UBL) Naming and Design Rules - UN/CEFACT XML Naming and Design Rules Technical Specification - US Department of the Navy XML Naming and Design Rules - US National Information Exchange Model (NIEM) NDR 2. Use of Camel Case for Naming XML and XML-Related Components http://xml.coverpages.org/camelCase.html - Robin On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org>wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am sampling some standard XML vocabularies to see what naming convention > they use. Below is what I've compiled thus far. What naming convention do > you use? > > 1. XML Schema: all elements and attributes are camel case. Examples: > maxOccurs, elementFormDefault, substitutionGroup. > > 2. XSLT: all elements and attributes are lower-case, dash-separated. > Examples: apply-templates, exclude-result-prefixes, analyze-string. > > 3. Schematron: most elements and attributes are a single, lower-case word > (e.g., assert, rule, pattern). There is an element and an attribute with > multiple words (value-of, is-a). There are two elements that use camel case > (queryBinding and defaultPhase). > > Notice that Schematron isn't consistent in its naming convention. Is that > a bad thing? Is it a good thing to have a consistent naming convention? > > Why does XML Schema and XSLT have different naming conventions? They are > both W3C technologies. Does the W3C not have a policy on naming markup? > > /Roger > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > -- Robin Cover OASIS, Director of Information Services Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink Email: robin@oasis-open.org Staff bio: http://www.oasis-open.org/people/staff/robin-cover Cover Pages: http://xml.coverpages.org/ Newsletter: http://xml.coverpages.org/newsletterArchive.html Tel: +1 972-296-1783]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324461.html Alex Muir scripsit: > Well the other thing I'm not clear on is that for the RNG the schematron > logic can be placed after the top level grammar element,, for the RNC I'm > getting syntax error I don't understand that. An element placed after the document (top-level) element would not be well-formed XML. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Objective consideration of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that optimum or inadequate performance in the trend of competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account. --Ecclesiastes 9:11, Orwell/Brown version _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324460.html Political power is implicit in markup technologies because they redistribute control of publication. It's wonderful to read these messages that touch on the political effect of the technology, though I appreciate that this is a deservedly rare deviation from the intent of the list. What a sterile conversation this would have been had we all been restricted by purely commercial interest. John Adam Turnbull _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324459.html Alex Muir scripsit: > with trang I get this lovely concoction,, Trang doesn't know what your annotations mean, so it carefully preserves all whitespace, both horizontal and vertical. You can edit that out either on the RNG or the RNC side, as you please. -- Henry S. Thompson said, / "Syntactic, structural, John Cowan Value constraints we / Express on the fly." cowan@ccil.org Simon St. Laurent: "Your / Incomprehensible http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Abracadabralike / schemas must die!" _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324458.html Dim memories are that a) Bosak argued for camel case and it was trendy at the time. b) Don't remember but XSLT inherited from DSSSL work and that may be where that originates. Check with James Clark. c) Schematron is originally Rick Jeliffe's fine work. He may have some insights. Yes, naming conventions are useful but where work has different original sources and then get grandfathered it can be arduous to rework them and otherwise, it isn't the top priority in the insanely political and still technically complex work of spec baking. As Michael hints at, time to approval is an issue. The W3C was to be the ISO-replacement because it could get a spec done fast when doing things in "Internet Time" was trendy. The results of that are mixed. To come up to true international quality (world-class), processes have to slow down for QA and multiple implementations. The claim that they will be overcome by events is overblown now that actual infrastructure development is mostly done for the current phase of web evolution. We say we can clean up later. Mostly we don't because any technology that is widely successful and fielded is hard to get out of the stickiness of deployment. In this, the web has multiple meanings. len Quoting "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org>: > Hi Folks, > > I am sampling some standard XML vocabularies to see what naming > convention they use. Below is what I've compiled thus far. What > naming convention do you use? > > 1. XML Schema: all elements and attributes are camel case. Examples: > maxOccurs, elementFormDefault, substitutionGroup. > > 2. XSLT: all elements and attributes are lower-case, dash-separated. > Examples: apply-templates, exclude-result-prefixes, analyze-string. > > 3. Schematron: most elements and attributes are a single, lower-case > word (e.g., assert, rule, pattern). There is an element and an > attribute with multiple words (value-of, is-a). There are two > elements that use camel case (queryBinding and defaultPhase). > > Notice that Schematron isn't consistent in its naming convention. Is > that a bad thing? Is it a good thing to have a consistent naming > convention? > > Why does XML Schema and XSLT have different naming conventions? They > are both W3C technologies. Does the W3C not have a policy on naming > markup? > > /Roger > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324457.html We debated that on Jon Taplin's blog given his iPad and Anything Apple enthrallment. Money really shines for some abnd unfortunately, some of them are educators by title. Two points: 1) American educational materials are already captured by the fact that few publishers supply that market and they are thralls of the Texas School Boards which are their biggest market and very conservative. Enuff said. 2) and back to the barn, it is critical that we keep our focus on open data resources for education, that is, remember why we do XML and what this extra effort to markup information buys us. If Apple can't get that into their products, then someone will and a few examples from what Texas does to school curricula will be enough to convince the smarter systems to buy NoTApple. As for those who don't, to put words into the mouth of the Great Gazoo: "Let evolution succeed. Let the dum dums die." len Quoting Pete Cordell <petexmldev@codalogic.com>: > Original Message From: <cbullard@hiwaay.net> >> From my perspective, this was inevitable and what I meant over the >> years of watching the sea changes since the web and muttering >> "welcome to the music industry". Selling digital anything has a >> common core of opportunities for this kind of consolidation and >> controlling the entry of new resources. > > In interesting way to look at it. (I nearly said analogy, but it's > closer to reality than that!) > > What really scars me is Apple's iBooks for schools. A brilliant > concept if it were open, but highly disturbing if one company > controls what a nation's children are taught. > > (But I think I've now moved out of the barnyard!) > > Pete Cordell > Codalogic Ltd > Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML > data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. > Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com > for more info > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324456.html Well the other thing I'm not clear on is that for the RNG the schematron logic can be placed after the top level grammar element,, for the RNC I'm getting syntax error # 1. Whenever condition attribute is used the element # should have have an xml:id or cref attribute # # condition="dig" cref="EWPB_Chinese_test_p54_1_warmup_1" # s:pattern [ id = "condition.checks" s:title [ "Whenever condition attribute is used the element should have have an xml:id or cref attribute" ] s:rule [ context = "*[exists(@condition)]" s:assert [ test = "exists(@cref) or exists(@xml:id)" "There should be an xml:id or cref attribute" ] ] ] s:pattern [ id = "cref.checks" s:title [ "cref points to element with matching xml:id" ] s:rule [ context = "*[exists(@cref)]" s:assert [ test = "exists(//*[matches(@xml:id,current()/@cref)])" " cref does not point to element with matching xml:id" ] ]] s:pattern [ id = "component.checks" s:title [ "components have xml:id" ] s:rule [ context = "db:book | db:part | db:preface | db:chapter | db:appendix | db:glossary | db:bibliography | db:article" s:assert [ test = "exists(@xml:id)" "every component should have an xml:id" ] ]] s:pattern [ id = "section.checks" s:title [ "sections have xml:id" ] s:rule [ context = "db:section | db:simplesect | db:bridgehead | db:dlossdiv | db:bibliodiv" s:assert [ test = "exists(@xml:id)" "every section should have an xml:id" ] ]] s:pattern [ id = "block-level.checks" s:title [ "Block Level has xml:id" ] s:rule [ context = "db:calloutlist | db:itemizedlist | db:orderedlist | db:simplelist | db:variablelist | db:note | db:address | db:literallayout | db:creen | db:example | db:informalexample | db:figure | db:informalfigure | db:table | db:para | db:simpara | db:formalpara | db:equation | db:informalequation | db:figure | db:graphic | db:mediaobject | db:qandaset | db:blockquote | db:epigraph | db:highlights | db:procedure | db:sidebar" s:assert [ test = "exists(@xml:id)" "every block-level element should have an xml:id" ] ]] # b) There is a rather loose <s:range> element allowed in the schema. # Have a look here: # http://code.google.com/p/dk-schema/source/browse/work-in-progress/ranges/DB-5.0%20mark-up/date.xml # we need to validate two things again: # -that for every start of range there is an endofrange # -that startofrange has xml:id - try to have a general xml:id rule and # reuse it if possible - in this the endofrange element doesn't have to # have xml:id so we can't simply add it to the list from a) s:pattern [ id = "range.checks" s:title [ "Range Checks" ] s:rule [ context = "db:range[matches(@class,'^startofrange$')]" s:assert [ test = "exists(following-sibling::db:range[matches(@class,'^endofrange$')])" "for every start of range there should be an range with class=endofrange" ] s:assert [ test = "exists(@xml:id)" "startofrange should have xml:id" ] ] # <s:rule context="db:range[matches(@class,'^startofrange$')]"> # # </s:rule>] # c) keys: many samples on this in the repo, but the idea is that key # will always be a variablelist, so check that: # -varaiblelist and each listentry has xml:id (again only if it's a key # - normal lists don't always have to ahve xml:ids) # ** NOT DONE THIS ONE -if the xref has "keyref_include, it would bee good to see if # varaiblelist is allowed where xref is, nt sure if it can be done in # schematron s:pattern [ ..... # I put my rules above the first start element.. also tried after it but different syntax error ]] start = # syntax error here set I read that "RELAX NG allows an annotation to be placed in square brackets immediately preceding the construct to be annotated. " does this mean I can't place them all the patterns in one place like the RNG? Thanks On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Alex Muir <alex.g.muir@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thought it a bit interesting that when converting > > <s:pattern id="condition.checks"> > <s:title>Whenever condition attribute is used the element should > have have an xml:id or cref > attribute</s:title> > > <s:rule context="*[exists(@condition)]"> > <s:assert test="exists(@cref) or exists(@xml:id)">There should be > an xml:id or cref > attribute</s:assert> > </s:rule> > </s:pattern> > > > > with trang I get this lovely concoction,, > > > > > s:pattern [ > id = "condition.checks" > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > s:title [ > "Whenever condition attribute is used the element should have have an > xml:id or cref\x{a}" ~ > " attribute" > ] > "\x{a}" ~ > " \x{a}" ~ > " " > s:rule [ > context = "*[exists(@condition)]" > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > s:assert [ > test = "exists(@cref) or exists(@xml:id)" > "There should be an xml:id or cref\x{a}" ~ > " attribute" > ] > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > ] > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > ] > > > I've since formated the rng without as many line breaks below which is a > bit better but I gather Trang likes adding escaped newlines \x{A} to the > rnc.. > > this can all be stripped? > > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > > Regex to the rescue? or am I doing something wrong? > > thanks > > > > s:pattern [ > id = "condition.checks" > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > s:title [ "Whenever condition attribute is used the element should have > have an xml:id or cref attribute" ] > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > s:rule [ > context = "*[exists(@condition)]" > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > s:assert [ test = "exists(@cref) or exists(@xml:id)" "There should be > an xml:id or cref attribute" ] > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > ] > "\x{a}" ~ > " " > ] > > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:05 PM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: > >> [sch:pattern >> [sch:title "Date rules"] >> [sch:rule context="Contract" >> [sch:assert test="ContractDate < current-date()" >> "ContractDate should be in the past because future contracts are not >> allowed."]]] >> >> Clunky, but usable. Trang understands this syntax when converting from >> RNG to RNC and vice versa. >> > > > > -- > Alex Muir > > Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building > University of the Gambia > http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> > > Come visit Gambia enjoy the sun and culture and help out! Software > Engineering Lecturers needed! > Join UTSWEB do local contract work or give a student a contract remotely > for slow, cheap and good work http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> > > Some fantastic African/Canadian Fusion *http://bafila.bandcamp.com/* > > -- Alex Muir Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building University of the Gambia http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Come visit Gambia enjoy the sun and culture and help out! Software Engineering Lecturers needed! Join UTSWEB do local contract work or give a student a contract remotely for slow, cheap and good work http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Some fantastic African/Canadian Fusion *http://bafila.bandcamp.com/*]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324455.html Original Message From: "John Cowan" > Pete Cordell scripsit: > >> It was the American hobbyists that won, as exemplified by Gates >> and Jobs. > > Not "exemplified by". "Sold to by", maybe. Or "sold out by". Happy is a man that turns his hobby into a business. Especially if he becomes a multi-billionaire! Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324454.html Original Message From: <cbullard@hiwaay.net> > From my perspective, this was inevitable and what I meant over the years > of watching the sea changes since the web and muttering "welcome to the > music industry". Selling digital anything has a common core of > opportunities for this kind of consolidation and controlling the entry of > new resources. In interesting way to look at it. (I nearly said analogy, but it's closer to reality than that!) What really scars me is Apple's iBooks for schools. A brilliant concept if it were open, but highly disturbing if one company controls what a nation's children are taught. (But I think I've now moved out of the barnyard!) Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324453.html Thought it a bit interesting that when converting <s:pattern id="condition.checks"> <s:title>Whenever condition attribute is used the element should have have an xml:id or cref attribute</s:title> <s:rule context="*[exists(@condition)]"> <s:assert test="exists(@cref) or exists(@xml:id)">There should be an xml:id or cref attribute</s:assert> </s:rule> </s:pattern> with trang I get this lovely concoction,, s:pattern [ id = "condition.checks" "\x{a}" ~ " " s:title [ "Whenever condition attribute is used the element should have have an xml:id or cref\x{a}" ~ " attribute" ] "\x{a}" ~ " \x{a}" ~ " " s:rule [ context = "*[exists(@condition)]" "\x{a}" ~ " " s:assert [ test = "exists(@cref) or exists(@xml:id)" "There should be an xml:id or cref\x{a}" ~ " attribute" ] "\x{a}" ~ " " ] "\x{a}" ~ " " ] I've since formated the rng without as many line breaks below which is a bit better but I gather Trang likes adding escaped newlines \x{A} to the rnc.. this can all be stripped? "\x{a}" ~ " " Regex to the rescue? or am I doing something wrong? thanks s:pattern [ id = "condition.checks" "\x{a}" ~ " " s:title [ "Whenever condition attribute is used the element should have have an xml:id or cref attribute" ] "\x{a}" ~ " " s:rule [ context = "*[exists(@condition)]" "\x{a}" ~ " " s:assert [ test = "exists(@cref) or exists(@xml:id)" "There should be an xml:id or cref attribute" ] "\x{a}" ~ " " ] "\x{a}" ~ " " ] On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:05 PM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: > [sch:pattern > [sch:title "Date rules"] > [sch:rule context="Contract" > [sch:assert test="ContractDate < current-date()" > "ContractDate should be in the past because future contracts are not > allowed."]]] > > Clunky, but usable. Trang understands this syntax when converting from > RNG to RNC and vice versa. > -- Alex Muir Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building University of the Gambia http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Come visit Gambia enjoy the sun and culture and help out! Software Engineering Lecturers needed! Join UTSWEB do local contract work or give a student a contract remotely for slow, cheap and good work http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Some fantastic African/Canadian Fusion *http://bafila.bandcamp.com/*]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324452.html Thanks much and glad to read this last part.. On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:05 PM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: > Trang understands this syntax when converting from > RNG to RNC and vice versa. > -- Alex Muir Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building University of the Gambia http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Come visit Gambia enjoy the sun and culture and help out! Software Engineering Lecturers needed! Join UTSWEB do local contract work or give a student a contract remotely for slow, cheap and good work http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Some fantastic African/Canadian Fusion *http://bafila.bandcamp.com/*]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324450.html Pete Cordell scripsit: > It was the American hobbyists that won, as exemplified by Gates > and Jobs. Not "exemplified by". "Sold to by", maybe. Or "sold out by". -- Kill Gorgun! Kill orc-folk! John Cowan No other words please Wild Men. cowan@ccil.org Drive away bad air and darkness http://www.ccil.org/~cowan with bright iron! --Ghan-buri-Ghan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324449.html Alex Muir scripsit: > Hi so a quick google search of > > Embed schematron rules "relax-NC" -- 4 results none of any value > verses > Embed schematron rules "relax-NG" -- answer how to do it comes up > > tells me that I'm only going to be able to Embed schematron rules > "relax-NG" which is logical enough given the XML Dr. Google, while informative, doesn't know everything. If you read http://relaxng.org/compact-tutorial-20030326.html#annotations , you will find out how to embed arbitrary XML (which includes Schematron) into RELAX NG compact syntax. Basically, the syntax is to wrap each XML element in square brackets. The first thing in the square bracket is the element name, anything that follows that looks like an attribute is an attribute, and character data has to be quoted. Also, .rnc format is normally called "RELAX NG compact syntax", not "RELAX-NC". So a Schematron rule like <sch:pattern> <sch:title>Date rules</sch:title> <sch:rule context="Contract"> <sch:assert test="ContractDate &lt; current-date()">ContractDate should be in the past because future contracts are not allowed.</sch:assert> </sch:rule> </sch:pattern> becomes [sch:pattern [sch:title "Date rules"] [sch:rule context="Contract" [sch:assert test="ContractDate < current-date()" "ContractDate should be in the past because future contracts are not allowed."]]] Clunky, but usable. Trang understands this syntax when converting from RNG to RNC and vice versa. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --The Hobbit _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324448.html >Notice that Schematron isn't consistent in its naming convention. Is that a bad thing? Yes. >Is it a good thing to have a consistent naming convention? Yes. >Why does XML Schema and XSLT have different naming conventions? My guess would be that it's due to ignorance (I didn't know they were doing that), but it could be arrogance (Those guys don't know what they're doing, and/or Who cares what X is doing, no-one will ever use X anyway). Those are only guesses. Untangling the history is rarely possible. >They are both W3C technologies. Does the W3C not have a policy on naming markup? It probably does by now, it has on most things. But it certainly didn't have in the days when you could get a spec out in 6 months. Which might not be a coincidence. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324447.html Andrew Welch scripsit: > Fwiw, it's not just that, there is the business apps side: > > http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html > > ...and don't forget Android licensing and Market app sale commissions, > and then there's Wallet transaction fees etc All trivial by comparison to the ad-placement business. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org The native charset of SMS messages supports English, French, mainland Scandinavian languages, German, Italian, Spanish with no accents, and GREEK SHOUTING. Everything else has to be Unicode, which means you get only 70 16-bit characters in a text instead of 160 7-bit characters. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324446.html Meanwhile a service like bandcamp that only takes 10-15%, gives you a too easy to use CMS with a url like http://bafila.bandcamp.com and offers MP3 320 and the lossless FLAC format will in my mind leave itunes in the dust eventually. They are now generating a million a month for the musicians and I bet next year it will be more than double that. Things change fast on the net don't they? I hope to generate revenue to grow the UTSWEB program by selling music on bandcamp. I've no interest in putting music on itunes for similar reasons that you have stated. Btw I vote this the most interesting discussion on XML dev I've read. You guys were doing all this interesting stuff while I was playing video games on my amiga and I guess before that and it's interesting to read about it. Cheers! On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote: > Meanwhile Neil Young is lamenting the death of Steve Jobs because Apple is > no longer pursuring high fidelity downloads. The American music industry > in particular has been eager to make any deal that will return power of > that market to the small cadres that had it and the computer science > industry is eager to make those deals to get exclusive distributions and > half the profits. -- Alex Muir Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building University of the Gambia http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Come visit Gambia enjoy the sun and culture and help out! Software Engineering Lecturers needed! Join UTSWEB do local contract work or give a student a contract remotely for slow, cheap and good work http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Some fantastic African/Canadian Fusion *http://bafila.bandcamp.com/*]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324445.html It's a fascinating branch to the thread, but I must say I understand it *much* better now that Michael has mentioned he has recently been through the Gehenna of filling out a US Government procurement form ;) For my part, having wandered about between Nigeria, Europe and the U.S. during the years when I was an E.E. student learning about computing, I also don't see the matter as so black and white. I think xml-dev reveals a widespread nostalgia for an ostensibly better world (e.g. Len's mention of habeas corpus versus the Japanese-American internment or the suppression of militant Black Power, Hispanic and Native national movements) which was maybe never as good as we thought it once was. The evils of cross-border ignorance and the tendency of government to ride roughshod over civil rights is probably more overt rather than more pervasive these days. I'm younger than a few in this thread, but I to go back to the heart of it, I was a recent immigrant to the US, a transfer engineering student, around the time the URL/HTTP family of specs was emerging. We were taught about i10n in my University. I was also quickly onto the hobbyist scene, including a bunch of work with friends among Egyptian, Chinese, etc. fellow immigrant-students, and no one any of us encountered was ignorant of non-ASCII. Fellow shareware developers, mentoring lecturers, etc. just knew global language representation is a terribly hard problem, and they figured it makes engineering sense to leave off solving the hardest problems until there was absolutely no choice. Most of the hobbyist UK space (my first computers were a ZX Spectrum purchased at Curry's and then an Amstrad PCW) were no more internationally aware. Sure big UK firms such as BP, where I did an internship in Nigeria, had heavyweight and frightfully complex internationalization, but no one short of a behemoth could afford that, and it's not behemoths who lead revolutions but nimble forces such as the masses of hobbyists who lit the fire in Silicon Valley. No one should be surprised that Microsoft was doing silly things with its encoding schemes, regardless of home country. And are we paying the price now? Eh! I think other matters folks have brought up illustrate that it's really not that big a deal. Sure I get frustrated too when every browser mangles/reports the reporting of a Web form differently according to the the way the page was coded up, but in the end I think xml-dev hosts the sort of people who shine under such petty frustrations. On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:10 AM, James Fuller <james.fuller.2007@gmail.com>wrote: > Also lets face it, doing business in Europe is difficult ... most > countries treat entrepreneurs terribly ... if Saxonica was in the > states you would get all lot more opportunity and benefits and more > chance for things like investment (which probably may not float your > boat, unsure). > Alas with that entrepreneurial support comes inexplicable nastiness such as cowboy banking and for example the LBO, which cancer is unfortunately well at work in the UK and in many other parts of the world these days. as for the reasons why you get asked such questions ... I would try to > remind myself that these kind of laws were passed with a sense of > doing right in the world, well meaning but poorly executed. > Is that really a comfort? I suspect those behind the past decade's succession of laws stripping posse comitatus, habeas corpus, and upending the balance of copyright and patent protection in the US believe they are doing the right thing, but that is no iota of comfort to me. And alas, all of these deleterious moves in the US are echoed all over the world. Luckily, I think that no such authoritarian conditions are permanent. We have a very interesting decade ahead of us politically, all over the world. And no less interesting in the technology of information representation and distribution. In fact, this technology is proving itself to be the overwhelming catalyst for political change. Open Source continues to prove itself best for innovation (as well as > promoting sanity with developers) and I would say have a bit more > faith, the open source model is crawling the domain space for a > superior business model ... it eventually will discover something > better then 'advertising'. > Which is a good reminder that the '90s and millenium generation worldwide takes for granted such technology as a the battleground where the interests of huge institutions (companies seeking to game privacy, governments seeking to curtail liberty) meet the massed interests of individuals. They intuit/understand all this better than we do, and much better than we give them credit for, as plenty of research has shown. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Weblog: http://copia.ogbuji.net Poetry ed @TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324444.html Hi Folks, I am sampling some standard XML vocabularies to see what naming convention they use. Below is what I've compiled thus far. What naming convention do you use? 1. XML Schema: all elements and attributes are camel case. Examples: maxOccurs, elementFormDefault, substitutionGroup. 2. XSLT: all elements and attributes are lower-case, dash-separated. Examples: apply-templates, exclude-result-prefixes, analyze-string. 3. Schematron: most elements and attributes are a single, lower-case word (e.g., assert, rule, pattern). There is an element and an attribute with multiple words (value-of, is-a). There are two elements that use camel case (queryBinding and defaultPhase). Notice that Schematron isn't consistent in its naming convention. Is that a bad thing? Is it a good thing to have a consistent naming convention? Why does XML Schema and XSLT have different naming conventions? They are both W3C technologies. Does the W3C not have a policy on naming markup? /Roger _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324443.html It takes a long time but is rooted in the card shark vs holy scroller debates held here and elsewhere some (now many) years ago. The frame guys took a real beating only to see <div> show up. <div> proved that neither side had much of a claim. An addressable chunk is an addressable chunk. As Tei said, mediocrity isn't always bad. That's why I think of it as averaging. Consensus won't always produce a superior solution. It produces a solution people are willing to use and if like me, you see technical evolution as a breeding process, not a competition for who is the smartest person in the room, use is the best measure of success, therefore, 'practice'. Among musicians there is a saying: the difference between a rock musician and a jazz musician is a rock musician plays three chords for thousands of people and a jazz musician plays a thousand chords for three people. Mediocrity has a place and the difference is how many and which albums will you keep when the significant other packs it in and you have to split the community property. len Quoting Andrew Welch <andrew.j.welch@gmail.com>: > :) You will need to explain that one for me... > > On 3 February 2012 00:07, Len Bullard <cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote: >> <div> >> >> len >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew Welch [mailto:andrew.j.welch@gmail.com] >> >>> but the results are that mediocrities become "best practices". >> >> Example please. >> >> > > > > -- > Andrew Welch > http://andrewjwelch.com > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324442.html Sorry for going off the reservation, Pete. One thing that is not mediocre: the consistent quality of well-informed, erudite and well-debated conversation on XML-Dev. From the heart, this list continues to be an inspiration in just how well international conversation succeeds when held by high-minded talented people. Neither Facebook nor Google or any of the tiny box to type in social network sites can achieve what mail lists such as this one have with the extended threads, complete posts, and occasional runs past the barnyard gate. As long as that is so, I don't fear for the web. len Quoting Pete Cordell <petexmldev@codalogic.com>: > Welcome to XML Celebrity Slamdown! > > I'm giving the contestants 1 point each. > > One to Michael for mentioning American purchasing systems. I'm > amazed that very large American companies' purchasing systems still > require you to enter a US State and a phone number in the North > American numbering plan format. Lack of international awareness (or > lack of international concerns) is not a 20 year-old historical > artefact. > > One to Len because I don't believe Unix would have got us to where > we are today. Really, neither the European computer industry won, > nor the American computer industry won. It was the American > hobbyists that won, as exemplified by Gates and Jobs. Europe's > focus was largely on satisfying the needs of large corporations. If > you wanted a computer you had the choice of one that required its > own air conditioned room and only did payroll, or one that you could > put in a corner and also played Pacman! With hindsight, no contest! > > Pete Cordell > Codalogic Ltd > Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML > data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. > Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com > for more info > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com> > To: <cbullard@hiwaay.net> > Cc: <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:38 AM > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > > >> On 02/02/2012 22:16, cbullard@hiwaay.net wrote: >>> Things changed because the market changed. In the 1980s the >>> markets for software in Europe were to put it mildly, soft in >>> comparison to the domestic markets. >> I assume domestic should be read as "American" here? >> >> And I'm not sure what you mean by "soft". Less competitive? Less >> profitable? Smaller? Certainly in many areas of software, it's very >> hard to penetrate overseas markets because you need such a deep >> knowledge of local requirements, and that's true whether you're >> exporting from the US to Europe or vice versa. (Just look at the >> form I'm trying to complete for a current US government >> procurement, which demands to know stuff about my policy on >> employing disabled Vietnam-war veterans, and whether the University >> that I attended was "historically black". Some of the questions are >> so invasive I'm not allowed to answer them under UK privacy law). >>> >>> >>> It took the consolidation of a lot of different companies around >>> Microsoft products to change the vertical stacks into horizontal >>> ones. >> Actually, in Europe it was Unix that caused that change, not >> Microsoft. The trend (X/Open in particular) was in full swing in >> the early 1980s, long before Microsoft was a force to be reckoned >> with. The rise of the independent database companies (Oracle, >> Ingres, Informix) had nothing to do with Microsoft. >>> No one plays what's mine is mine and what's your's is mine as >>> well as Apple plays it and others such as Amazon and Facebook are >>> shuttering the web blinds to plays from companies that rely on >>> openness such as Google even as some free ride on Google openness >>> and sharing in technologies such as Android. >>> >> Yes, the ebb and flow between open and closed is fascinating to >> watch; depressing at times, but certainly interesting. Particularly >> depressing is that the regulators seem to be about 10 years behind, >> still fighting the browser wars. The way they are allowing Apple >> and Amazon to tie content to hardware amazes me: I thought that had >> all been made illegal 20 years ago. >> >> Not that I find the Google business model - pay for everything >> through advertising, and collect as much private data as you can in >> order to target the advertising - particularly appealing either. >> >> Michael Kay >> Saxonica >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org >> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org >> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >> > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324441.html Quoting Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com>: > On 02/02/2012 22:16, cbullard@hiwaay.net wrote: > I assume domestic should be read as "American" here? Context matters. > And I'm not sure what you mean by "soft". Less competitive? Less profitable? Smaller and less profitable. It's a matter of what is needed to sell into a market and is that as lucrative short term as other opportunities. A significant change was the fall of the Wall. At GE I talked about what was needed to put SGML into the newly-non Communist bloc countries. Joan Smith's reply to me was "But, Len, they have no money." As we discover, globalization is not a single issue. > Smaller? Certainly in many areas of software, it's very hard to > penetrate overseas markets because you need such a deep knowledge of > local requirements, and that's true whether you're exporting from > the US to Europe or vice versa. (Just look at the form I'm trying to > complete for a current US government procurement, which demands to > know stuff about my policy on employing disabled Vietnam-war > veterans, and whether the University that I attended was > "historically black". Some of the questions are so invasive I'm not > allowed to answer them under UK privacy law). True and getting worse. We overregulate and I say that as a "progressive". There is some truth to the "nation of the offended" but we aren't unique in that. As for their policy, tell them that you employ a half dozen Vietnamese in Ho Chi Mihn city. They'll like that. As for the other, tell them you attended the University of Dublin. Every culture has it's sins. There is a time for remediation then there is a time to move on. >> It took the consolidation of a lot of different companies around >> Microsoft products to change the vertical stacks into horizontal >> ones. > Actually, in Europe it was Unix that caused that change, not Microsoft. We did the Unix phase too right after VMS. What I am referring to is the penetration of the desktop into the home market. Until that happened, global hypermedia was a lot of lab experiments in a lot of labs around the world and the Internet was a bulletin board with email. Microsoft made it possible to have a non-laughable web. >> No one plays what's mine is mine and what's your's is mine as well >> as Apple plays it and others such as Amazon and Facebook are >> shuttering the web blinds to plays from companies that rely on >> openness such as Google even as some free ride on Google openness >> and sharing in technologies such as Android. >> > Yes, the ebb and flow between open and closed is fascinating to > watch; depressing at times, but certainly interesting. Particularly > depressing is that the regulators seem to be about 10 years behind, > still fighting the browser wars. The way they are allowing Apple and > Amazon to tie content to hardware amazes me: I thought that had all > been made illegal 20 years ago. I thought we had posse commitatus and habeas corpus forever. Then they signed those away too. Very depressing. I think anyone who can't see the class struggle at hand is blind but that's not a good topic for this forum. Just my own frustration... Meanwhile Neil Young is lamenting the death of Steve Jobs because Apple is no longer pursuring high fidelity downloads. The American music industry in particular has been eager to make any deal that will return power of that market to the small cadres that had it and the computer science industry is eager to make those deals to get exclusive distributions and half the profits. From my perspective, this was inevitable and what I meant over the years of watching the sea changes since the web and muttering "welcome to the music industry". Selling digital anything has a common core of opportunities for this kind of consolidation and controlling the entry of new resources. Again, YouTube is the indie's best friend and YouTube is the radio. That is where Neil Young doesn't get it. > Not that I find the Google business model - pay for everything > through advertising, and collect as much private data as you can in > order to target the advertising - particularly appealing either. If they were invading privacy, I would agree but it seems we are all willing to give that up to get to the free services and toys. Predictable but not a popular sentiment. As I said a long time ago, we are forging our own chains. To be fair, I am a real user of YouTube for finding works and for publishing my own and the 'free' part of that makes a difference. The trends worry me because they tend to be like a nuclear arms race: if one does it, there is a rush for all the near neighbors. Apple has set a stunning example and I expect others to follow unless someone can prove why that's a bad idea. Anyway, I'm way way off topic. Apologies to the list. len _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324440.html He!... mediocrity is not always bad. Say... databases. Almost all web applications are built using relational databases. Not all applications need a database. But web applications are soehorn to use relational databases anyway. Some of the applications that are implemented using databases (perhaps most CMS's) would run better and be more flexible using a document database, like MongoDB. What we win using databases for everything? economy of scale, people become very good at producing relational database-based software, make very few mistakes because made a lot of experience with that stuff. The average person can do a good job with mediocre tools, but If you give the average person a tool that is "too clever", the probability of a bad output is high than 50%. Give the average programmer something like Ruby or Perl, and hope for the best!, but it will result on some shitty code, because Ruby and Perl are clever programming languages, not for the average joe. So the average webmaster is going to use <div> in a non semantic way (=crappy). But will break less thing doing that than with "abbr article aside audio bdi canvas data datalist details figcaption figure footer header hgroup mark". The average webmaster has no idea how to use properly "figcaption" or "aside". On 3 February 2012 01:07, Len Bullard <cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote: > <div> > > len > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Welch [mailto:andrew.j.welch@gmail.com] > >> but the results are that mediocrities become "best practices". > > Example please. > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324439.html Hi so a quick google search of Embed schematron rules "relax-NC" -- 4 results none of any value verses Embed schematron rules "relax-NG" -- answer how to do it comes up tells me that I'm only going to be able to Embed schematron rules "relax-NG" which is logical enough given the XML Just wanted to verify that is the case and I wonder generally speaking is RNG more flexible because of it's XML nature? If I have a project where the users find using RNC more easy to understand however I want to embed schematron rules is it then best that I just write a script to do RNC into RNG conversion and automate the embedding? Regards -- Alex Muir Instructor | Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building University of the Gambia http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Low budget software development benefiting development in the Gambia, West Africa Experience of a lifetime, come to Gambia and Join UTSWEB - http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Some fantastic African/Canadian Fusion http://bafila.bandcamp.com/]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324438.html Welcome to XML Celebrity Slamdown! I'm giving the contestants 1 point each. One to Michael for mentioning American purchasing systems. I'm amazed that very large American companies' purchasing systems still require you to enter a US State and a phone number in the North American numbering plan format. Lack of international awareness (or lack of international concerns) is not a 20 year-old historical artefact. One to Len because I don't believe Unix would have got us to where we are today. Really, neither the European computer industry won, nor the American computer industry won. It was the American hobbyists that won, as exemplified by Gates and Jobs. Europe's focus was largely on satisfying the needs of large corporations. If you wanted a computer you had the choice of one that required its own air conditioned room and only did payroll, or one that you could put in a corner and also played Pacman! With hindsight, no contest! Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com> To: <cbullard@hiwaay.net> Cc: <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > On 02/02/2012 22:16, cbullard@hiwaay.net wrote: >> Things changed because the market changed. In the 1980s the markets for >> software in Europe were to put it mildly, soft in comparison to the >> domestic markets. > I assume domestic should be read as "American" here? > > And I'm not sure what you mean by "soft". Less competitive? Less > profitable? Smaller? Certainly in many areas of software, it's very hard > to penetrate overseas markets because you need such a deep knowledge of > local requirements, and that's true whether you're exporting from the US > to Europe or vice versa. (Just look at the form I'm trying to complete for > a current US government procurement, which demands to know stuff about my > policy on employing disabled Vietnam-war veterans, and whether the > University that I attended was "historically black". Some of the questions > are so invasive I'm not allowed to answer them under UK privacy law). >> >> >> It took the consolidation of a lot of different companies around >> Microsoft products to change the vertical stacks into horizontal ones. > Actually, in Europe it was Unix that caused that change, not Microsoft. > The trend (X/Open in particular) was in full swing in the early 1980s, > long before Microsoft was a force to be reckoned with. The rise of the > independent database companies (Oracle, Ingres, Informix) had nothing to > do with Microsoft. >> No one plays what's mine is mine and what's your's is mine as well as >> Apple plays it and others such as Amazon and Facebook are shuttering the >> web blinds to plays from companies that rely on openness such as Google >> even as some free ride on Google openness and sharing in technologies >> such as Android. >> > Yes, the ebb and flow between open and closed is fascinating to watch; > depressing at times, but certainly interesting. Particularly depressing is > that the regulators seem to be about 10 years behind, still fighting the > browser wars. The way they are allowing Apple and Amazon to tie content to > hardware amazes me: I thought that had all been made illegal 20 years ago. > > Not that I find the Google business model - pay for everything through > advertising, and collect as much private data as you can in order to > target the advertising - particularly appealing either. > > Michael Kay > Saxonica > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324437.html On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com> wrote: > On 02/02/2012 22:16, cbullard@hiwaay.net wrote: >> >> Things changed because the market changed.  In the 1980s the markets for >> software in Europe were to put it mildly, soft in comparison to the domestic >> markets. > > I assume domestic should be read as "American" here? its not like the UK helps itself by constantly defining itself in terms of the special relationship is has with the US ... <flamebait>UK is kind of like a domestic market for the US</flamebait> > And I'm not sure what you mean by "soft". Less competitive? Less profitable? > Smaller? Certainly in many areas of software, it's very hard to penetrate > overseas markets because you need such a deep knowledge of local > requirements, and that's true whether you're exporting from the US to Europe living in the Czech Republic reminds me of how Europe used to be e.g. much of the government software procurement is a locked up cabal ... government entities across Europe were very closed and getting into these markets was next to impossible. Most of Eastern Europe is still privatising these institutions and getting their tendering procedures more open ... these kind of activities takes decades to work out. Also lets face it, doing business in Europe is difficult ... most countries treat entrepreneurs terribly ... if Saxonica was in the states you would get all lot more opportunity and benefits and more chance for things like investment (which probably may not float your boat, unsure). > or vice versa. (Just look at the form I'm trying to complete for a current > US government procurement, which demands to know stuff about my policy on > employing disabled Vietnam-war veterans, and whether the University that I > attended was "historically black". Some of the questions are so invasive I'm > not allowed to answer them under UK privacy law). sure, the odd thing about irrelevant questions like this is less about the data they gather and analysis they will do on it (I don't put so much faith in governments ability to do IT) but the sheer uselessness of the activity ... btw this kind of 'jumping through hoops' activity beats whatever happens in communist countries hands down (my wife reminds me of the inanity of communist rules and I am certain most of us would have been crushed by them). as for the reasons why you get asked such questions ... I would try to remind myself that these kind of laws were passed with a sense of doing right in the world, well meaning but poorly executed. invoking the UK privacy law as if its better is a bit of a red herring, most of the UK privacy laws protect celebrities and rich/ennobled folk and cost money to gain the benefit of ... its just like in the states e.g. money talks. >> >> It took the consolidation of a lot of different companies around Microsoft >> products to change the vertical stacks into horizontal ones. > > Actually, in Europe it was Unix that caused that change, not Microsoft. The > trend (X/Open in particular) was in full swing in the early 1980s, long > before Microsoft was a force to be reckoned with. The rise of the > independent database companies (Oracle, Ingres, Informix) had nothing to do > with Microsoft. in Europe like anywhere if its free, this will get used first ... especially new democracies. >>  No one plays what's mine is mine and what's your's is mine as well as >> Apple plays it and others such as Amazon and Facebook are shuttering the web >> blinds to plays from companies that rely on openness such as Google even as >> some free ride on Google openness and sharing in technologies such as >> Android. >> > Yes, the ebb and flow between open and closed is fascinating to watch; > depressing at times, but certainly interesting. Particularly depressing is > that the regulators seem to be about 10 years behind, still fighting the > browser wars. The way they are allowing Apple and Amazon to tie content to > hardware amazes me: I thought that had all been made illegal 20 years ago. > > Not that I find the Google business model - pay for everything through > advertising, and collect as much private data as you can in order to target > the advertising - particularly appealing either. Open Source continues to prove itself best for innovation (as well as promoting sanity with developers) and I would say have a bit more faith, the open source model is crawling the domain space for a superior business model ... it eventually will discover something better then 'advertising'. Jim Fuller _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324436.html > Not that I find the Google business model - pay for everything through > advertising, and collect as much private data as you can in order to target > the advertising - particularly appealing either. Fwiw, it's not just that, there is the business apps side: http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html ...and don't forget Android licensing and Market app sale commissions, and then there's Wallet transaction fees etc -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324435.html On 02/02/2012 22:16, cbullard@hiwaay.net wrote: > Things changed because the market changed. In the 1980s the markets > for software in Europe were to put it mildly, soft in comparison to > the domestic markets. I assume domestic should be read as "American" here? And I'm not sure what you mean by "soft". Less competitive? Less profitable? Smaller? Certainly in many areas of software, it's very hard to penetrate overseas markets because you need such a deep knowledge of local requirements, and that's true whether you're exporting from the US to Europe or vice versa. (Just look at the form I'm trying to complete for a current US government procurement, which demands to know stuff about my policy on employing disabled Vietnam-war veterans, and whether the University that I attended was "historically black". Some of the questions are so invasive I'm not allowed to answer them under UK privacy law). > > > It took the consolidation of a lot of different companies around > Microsoft products to change the vertical stacks into horizontal ones. Actually, in Europe it was Unix that caused that change, not Microsoft. The trend (X/Open in particular) was in full swing in the early 1980s, long before Microsoft was a force to be reckoned with. The rise of the independent database companies (Oracle, Ingres, Informix) had nothing to do with Microsoft. > No one plays what's mine is mine and what's your's is mine as well > as Apple plays it and others such as Amazon and Facebook are > shuttering the web blinds to plays from companies that rely on > openness such as Google even as some free ride on Google openness and > sharing in technologies such as Android. > Yes, the ebb and flow between open and closed is fascinating to watch; depressing at times, but certainly interesting. Particularly depressing is that the regulators seem to be about 10 years behind, still fighting the browser wars. The way they are allowing Apple and Amazon to tie content to hardware amazes me: I thought that had all been made illegal 20 years ago. Not that I find the Google business model - pay for everything through advertising, and collect as much private data as you can in order to target the advertising - particularly appealing either. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324433.html Guy standing by the road watching the history of GUIs marching off into the sunset like tired sloths looks at the guy next to him and mutters, "I hate the GUI migration. Pack up the kids. We're moving again." len -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Welch [mailto:andrew.j.welch@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 5:22 PM To: cbullard@hiwaay.net Cc: Petite Abeille; xml-dev Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > but the results are that mediocrities become "best practices". Example please. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324430.html :) You will need to explain that one for me... On 3 February 2012 00:07, Len Bullard <cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote: > <div> > > len > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Welch [mailto:andrew.j.welch@gmail.com] > >> but the results are that mediocrities become "best practices". > > Example please. > > -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324429.html <div> len -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Welch [mailto:andrew.j.welch@gmail.com] > but the results are that mediocrities become "best practices". Example please. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324428.html > but the results are that mediocrities become "best practices". Example please. -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324427.html Or simply average. Welcome to the music business. When a market such as the web inculcates wants what will work for the average joe, mediocrity, or average, is the almost certain outcome. Does this have to be the case? Unfortunately, yes. Almost every big change in the comp-sci market as long as I can remember came about because someone sat down to "simplify" or "dumb down" an existing pervasive or soon to be pervasive aspect of that market. The choices made in that process may be brilliant, but the results are that mediocrities become "best practices". len Quoting Petite Abeille <petite.abeille@gmail.com>: > > On Feb 2, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Michael Kay wrote: > >> the relentless industry pursuit of mediocracy > > In polite circles, mediocrity is known as "best practices": > > http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-09-03/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324426.html Things changed because the market changed. In the 1980s the markets for software in Europe were to put it mildly, soft in comparison to the domestic markets. On the other hand, as someone who was working in a company that sold to the Middle East and Europe at that time we certainly were aware of internationalization as well as the other problems of the smaller markets such as the intense tribalism that forced us to hunt through every document we shipped for any drawing that suggested a Star of David, mentioned Israel, etc. For all the good ideas, the problems of European markets are also there. It took the consolidation of a lot of different companies around Microsoft products to change the vertical stacks into horizontal ones. The web was the next impetus but overall, until a truely integrated international market existed, there were few compelling market arguments for it. The work follows the money. Sad but so. The Chinese cooperation with efforts such as X3D are notable. They do tend to look for the bits being ignored over here and figure out ways to profit by them, and interesting habit for a Communist country, and smart. <aside>The Americans aren't unaware. We tend to regard all markets as profit centers and leave the social work to social workers. For all the talk in the last twenty years about openness, the most profitable businesses in this industry are a) American and b) closed. No one plays what's mine is mine and what's your's is mine as well as Apple plays it and others such as Amazon and Facebook are shuttering the web blinds to plays from companies that rely on openness such as Google even as some free ride on Google openness and sharing in technologies such as Android. I believe the change from cooperation to close and capture has come to the web overall. How this will play out in standards and specifications is pretty easy to guess. It is going to get increasingly harder for the innovators despite all political speech to the contrary. This is a good time for the young ones among us to think long and hard about their ambitions and values given that so much of what they have been taught about the web philosophies while right in spirit are increasingly unviable in practice. The bad old days are coming back, Michael. Just one opinion...</aside> len Quoting Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com>: > On 02/02/2012 14:45, cbullard@hiwaay.net wrote: >> Not just a little Euro-centric jealousy there, Michael? >> > More frustration than jealousy, at all the good work that has come > to naught over the years, and all the people who didn't get the > recognition they deserved. But I guess that European designers > aren't the only ones whose ideas have been ignored in the relentless > industry pursuit of mediocracy. All one can say is, things are far > better today than they used to be around the 1980s - at least for > Europeans; there's still a woeful ignorance in the West of all the > interesting things happening in Japan and China, because they read > our language and we don't read theirs (plus they know the value of > listening, lurking, and learning). > > Michael Kay > Saxonica > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324425.html On Feb 2, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Michael Kay wrote: > the relentless industry pursuit of mediocracy In polite circles, mediocrity is known as "best practices": http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-09-03/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324420.html Catching up on the list after a prolonged distraction, I see no one has replied to your query. As a newcomer to XML myself, I can recommend the following--not because they're perfect, but merely because they helped me come up to my present speed (which, granted, isn't at all dizzying--but it's enabling me to function in a setting in which I have to interact with XML etc. just frequently enough to mean I need to know it, and just infrequently enough to make it hard to remember): (Step 1) Study in tandem: * Kevin Howard Goldberg, XML (2nd ed.) -- in the Visual Quickstart Guide series, which I detest, but this one worked for me * Simon St. Laurent & Michael Fitzgerald, XML Pocket Reference (3rd. Edition) (Step 2) If your interests lie anywhere in the direction of EITHER of the technologies mentioned in its title, then buy a copy of this one, study the introductory bits (throughout), and keep it by your side at all times: * Michael Kay, XSLT 2.0 and XPath 2.0 Programmer's Reference (4th ed.) -- Wrox (Meanwhile) * Follow this mailing list and the XSL list (at mulberrytech.com). Much of the discussion will be over your head, but you will learn all manner of fascinating bits and pieces along the way--and most important, you'll get a feel for the real XML world. (The books, for example, might lead you to wonder why anyone in his right mind would write XML Schema for anything. The lists will tell you that no one does unless forced to by some fairly compelling and unusual set of circumstances.) * I also follow the schematron and relax ng lists, but they're not very active. I can't tell if that's because hardly anyone uses those technologies, or because those who do don't have many questions. Warning: The preceding recommendations are based on a sample size of one, which should not be considered representative. Norm Birkett > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Jolliffe [mailto:bobjolliffe@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 4:02 AM > To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org > Subject: [xml-dev] book for beginners > > Does anyone have any book recommendations for a beginner student which > covers the *fundamentals* of xml validation and processing? Bearing > in mind I guess that people would have different ideas of what is > fundamental. I would think a good overview should touch upon DTDs, > W3C Xml Schema, RelaxNg, Schematron, NVDL, Xpath, Xslt, Xquery, XProc. > Maybe this list is too long. Maybe it is missing something vital. > Would be nice also to include something on the different homes and > genesis of these things - W3C, OASIS, ISO - that students understand > that specifications are not found in nature ... > > Thanks > Bob > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324419.html On 02/02/2012 14:45, cbullard@hiwaay.net wrote: > Not just a little Euro-centric jealousy there, Michael? > More frustration than jealousy, at all the good work that has come to naught over the years, and all the people who didn't get the recognition they deserved. But I guess that European designers aren't the only ones whose ideas have been ignored in the relentless industry pursuit of mediocracy. All one can say is, things are far better today than they used to be around the 1980s - at least for Europeans; there's still a woeful ignorance in the West of all the interesting things happening in Japan and China, because they read our language and we don't read theirs (plus they know the value of listening, lurking, and learning). Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324418.html Not just a little Euro-centric jealousy there, Michael? If TimBL had prevailed, we'd be arguing about a modified RTF. len Quoting Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com>: > Before the internet, the level of ignorance in the US about anything > happening outside the US was staggering. The amazing thing is that > HTTP/HTML ever made it across from Switzerland. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324414.html Contemplating the work before me, it may be advantageous to strip a DTD down to a set of DTDs each of which do something specific (thus the earlier thread about granularity). The problem of version creep is it leads to a polyglot that is difficult to manage in code say in the GUI controls where it better be a very simple set of options or the user gets lost and codes the wrong elements. There likely was a technology shift of focus between versions because having coded to the most recent and now rolling back one, it is apparent in the prior version someone(s) was trying to use database concepts and didn't quite make it across the chasm from structured chapters to tables and rows. In the new version, the elements in the databasey parts of the document (reference matter) look more like objects and property sets (someone realized not every row in a document table really is a row in a database needing an id. Still, we have to id every one of them (#REQUIRED) despite the fact that no IDREF points to them or ever will. Upshot: we pay the cost (or are paid for it) until the very slow migration to the newer version is reasonably complete while keeping all the code supporting the last version because.. you never know. It will most often come back to incomplete knowledge, Boltzmann's revenge. Possibly a different topic: how to factor the least used parts of a language into their own boxes so those that do can and those that don't do don't have to know how. len Scope Creep: often heard in the bathroom gargling before spending the morning hassling his co-workers. Quoting Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie>: > I have lost count of the projects whose first task was to strip all > namespaces and cut the XSD down to a DTD representing only the > element types that were actually used. In only a few cases have I > been able to persuade them to do the modelling in RNG and recreate a > minimally workable Schema. But this is solid text-document XML, with > more character data content than markup :-) > > ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324413.html Variations depend on where you are in the stack AND the locale. For example, if I started with that assumption, nothing I am writing would be of much use to the community in which I am situated which is squarely in the DTD camp and bloody big complex ones with multiple associated versions. A mild bad surprise yesterday was to have converted a large RPSTL to a tag set only to open the DTD of note and find a different tag set: same information, but different tags and different id'd elements. Version creep. Another variant is the stack: are you writing XML software or are you using XML software to create an application (e.g., are you writing a parser or creating your own color-coded rich text box or are you dragging them into the forms, googling the API/docs and implementing a search and replace and a set of canned queries)? Starting over has different costs. In the latter case, throwing things at the wall for awhile until you are comfortable with the operations (eg, does it surprise you and do things you didn't plan for but realized you need only to find out it does that) isn't that bad. Not checking the DTD first and completely understanding it? Not good but recoverable. Not being told the customer switched to XML Schemas a week ago? A bad day in hell. Nimbleness is awareness and preparation. Few get it right the first time and depending on the task at hand, no two developments start in the same place. If you make assumptions based on "the larger XML community" then you are saying they are your customer or your supplier. If you do that and they aren't one or the other, you're screwing up. I'm building tools because I need them to do a specific job set. YMMV and mine is a different job than writing for a market to which you haven't sold anything or which you propose to create. On the other hand, if you are immersed in a particular market and what you create is saving you time and money, increasing quality and reducing misery, there is a better than even chance it will do the same for others in the same community. Keep a copy of code that works even if you decide not to use it. You never know. len Quoting John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>: > Costello, Roger L. scripsit: > >> In the case of the discussion at hand, the assumption is what? Is it >> the following? Assumption: The larger XML community will always use >> XML Schema so just create data models using XML Schema. > > Something like that. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324412.html > Fair enough. FWIW, my personal experience is the exact opposite: pointless, bloated, big design up-front, busy work which never gets anything done. But as always, YMMV. > I would say, putting a lot of design effort up front into creating a really elegant and compact foundation that will prove highly extensible is effort well spent. Putting a lot of effort up front into implementing all the features that anyone might ever want is effort wasted. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324406.html >A lot of this stuff was still relatively new, and only a few people were thinking of non-European or non-Latin-alphabet languages. I don't think that's true. Vast numbers of people were thinking about them, but they weren't in California, and no-one in California took any notice. Before the internet, the level of ignorance in the US about anything happening outside the US was staggering. The amazing thing is that HTTP/HTML ever made it across from Switzerland. (Just consider: why did Microsoft, for many years, refer to Latin-1 as "ANSI"? Answer: because that's what it said on the cover of the copy that they acquired. ISO standards in those days were published in the US with an ANSI rebranding. Microsoft were not only ignorant that it was an international standard rather than an American one, they were also clearly unaware that there were zillions of other ANSI standards.) Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324405.html On Feb 2, 2012, at 5:11 AM, Michael Sokolov wrote: > You have to estimate the likelihood of future change later and compare against the cost of wasted effort now. Not only wasted effort (one-off), but also the tax of added complexity (recurrent, exponential). Not to mention ongoing maintenance of unwarranted code. Tangentially related quote of the day: “A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that worked. The inverse proposition also appears to be true: A complex system designed from scratch never works and cannot be made to work. You have to start over, beginning with a working simple system.” —JOHN GALL _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324404.html Michael Sokolov scripsit: > Or said another way, let's say we believe the 10/100 rule above. What is > the likelihood that project X will be adopted in another locale than the > one for which it was originally designed? If it's less than 10%, you > shouldn't bother with i18n up front. If you really know that (as when it is bespoke software) then yes. The trouble is that "prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" (attr. Niels Bohr). There is also the problem of barriers to entry: localizing a non-i18n program may be so hard that commercial opportunities are surrendered needlessly. -- MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE WUGGUMS John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324403.html On 2/1/2012 3:45 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Andrew Welch scripsit: > >> One approach is: do nothing. Incur that cost if and when it's actually >> needed, don't waste your time/effort/money on it now. > I have never cared for this idea, and indeed there are many obvious > counterexamples. Tim Bray's stuff on internationalization (back > when it was a new and radical idea) showed that the cost of i18n at > development time is about 10%, whereas after the fact it's about 100%. I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule. You have to estimate the likelihood of future change later and compare against the cost of wasted effort now. I do think our estimates of the former are much more error-prone though. If you knew for sure which thing you were absolutely going to have to deal with eventually, you should certainly plan for it now. The problem is when you don't know. Then there will be many things (maybe 10!) that you could decide to build in abstractions for now. But perhaps only one of them will be needed. Or said another way, let's say we believe the 10/100 rule above. What is the likelihood that project X will be adopted in another locale than the one for which it was originally designed? If it's less than 10%, you shouldn't bother with i18n up front. -Mike _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324402.html General Atomics Aeronautical in San Diego CA is looking for a tools developer to help support our IETM development and support the team of writers. We are looking for just about any combination of these skills: - S1000D - DITA - Mil Spec publishing background - Army IADS development - SGML - FOSI - Arbortext customization - Perl, Javascript, Java - XML This is a full time direct position and is located in Poway (outside San Diego). For complete details see https://search9.smartsearchonline.com/asi/jobs/jobdetails.asp?current_page=1&city=&location=&job_type=&emp_status=&direct_jo_num=&country=&k1=IETMS&k2=&k3=&k4=&k5=&k6=&k7=&k8=&salary_min=&co_num=&apply=yes&job_number=11446 or contact me directly at dvint@dvint.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Danny Vint Panoramic Photography http://www.dvint.com voice: 619-938-3610 _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324400.html On 1 February 2012 22:26, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: > Petite Abeille scripsit: > >> Fair enough. FWIW, my personal experience is the exact opposite: >> pointless, bloated, big design up-front, busy work which never gets >> anything done. But as always, YMMV. > > Believe me, I've had plenty of experience of that.  If you truly aren't > going to need something, YAGNI is a huge win.  But there's no reason to > pretend that just because this is only the first report you are writing, > that there won't be hundreds more reports. I think the theory goes, you use all of the good practice and patterns you know while you are coding something, but don't add in unnecessary flexibility up-front... as then it's a cost that you've definitely incurred regardless, as more often than not the project gets cancelled or the world moves on before that flexibility pays back the cost. I think (again, sorry its all vague) that's from Agile, maybe someone will know either way. -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324399.html Petite Abeille scripsit: > Fair enough. FWIW, my personal experience is the exact opposite: > pointless, bloated, big design up-front, busy work which never gets > anything done. But as always, YMMV. Believe me, I've had plenty of experience of that. If you truly aren't going to need something, YAGNI is a huge win. But there's no reason to pretend that just because this is only the first report you are writing, that there won't be hundreds more reports. -- Why are well-meaning Westerners so concerned that John Cowan the opening of a Colonel Sanders in Beijing means cowan@ccil.org the end of Chinese culture? [...] We have had http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Chinese restaurants in America for over a century, and it hasn't made us Chinese. On the contrary, we obliged the Chinese to invent chop suey. --Marshall Sahlins _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324398.html On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:55 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Change is not free. XP advocates claim that if the rest of their > methods are followed, it costs no more to make a change later than to > make it now; my view of this claim is that "all theory is for it, but > all experience is against it." Fair enough. FWIW, my personal experience is the exact opposite: pointless, bloated, big design up-front, busy work which never gets anything done. But as always, YMMV. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324397.html Costello, Roger L. scripsit: > John, do you have a reference for this, that shows the numbers you cite? Not that I can easily lay my hands on. You could ask Tim. Poking about on the C2 wiki, I find an anecdote of someone doing i18n in a well-factored English-only algorithm with very little work. However, I bet he was not using a "bytes=characters" language like C. > > This is a specific case of a more general point ... > > Again, it would be awesome to have a reference for this. Is this a > documented principle that you are describing? There's plenty of talk about it in C2 and other XP sources: search for [YAGNI counterexamples]. > > it is always simplest to hard-code all assumptions, but > > it *will* force redesign further down the line, and the > > more assumptions, the more redesign. > > In the case of the discussion at hand, the assumption is what? Is it > the following? Assumption: The larger XML community will always use > XML Schema so just create data models using XML Schema. Something like that. Petite Abeille scripsit: > And what's wrong with redesign? After all, we are dealing with software, > which, by its very nature, is infinitely malleable. Change is not free. XP advocates claim that if the rest of their methods are followed, it costs no more to make a change later than to make it now; my view of this claim is that "all theory is for it, but all experience is against it." In addition, not all software is malleable. The extreme case is software in ROM, which is not malleable except by buying a new device. Short of that, there is commercial software where customers are charged to upgrade, which might as well be in ROM. It's common enough for programs never to be upgraded until a new PC with new software is bought. -- I now introduce Professor Smullyan, John Cowan who will prove to you that either cowan@ccil.org he doesn't exist or you don't exist, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan but you won't know which. --Melvin Fitting _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324396.html On Feb 1, 2012, at 9:45 PM, John Cowan wrote: > it is always simplest > to hard-code all assumptions, but it *will* force redesign further > down the line, and the more assumptions, the more redesign. And what's wrong with redesign? After all, we are dealing with software, which, by its very nature, is infinitely malleable. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324395.html On 01/02/12 16:53, Pete Cordell wrote: > Ignorance is a very acceptable excuse in IMO. Talking to computers was a > very ASCII affair in those days (e.g. C) and it would seem reasonable > that computers would talk to computers in the same way. > > My recollection is that for those of us who weren't Internationalisation > gurus, choosing Latin-1 was considered really pushing the > Internationalisation boat out! There was certainly an element of that at the time. But a lot of the effort was really on the traditional basis of rough consensus and running code. A lot of this stuff was still relatively new, and only a few people were thinking of non-European or non-Latin-alphabet languages. And I see that Unicode added another 700-odd characters to the repertoire recently... ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324394.html Great discussion! John Cowan wrote: > Tim Bray's stuff on internationalization (back when it was a new > and radical idea) showed that the cost of i18n at development time > is about 10%, whereas after the fact it's about 100%. John, do you have a reference for this, that shows the numbers you cite? > This is a specific case of a more general point ... Again, it would be awesome to have a reference for this. Is this a documented principle that you are describing? > it is always simplest to hard-code all assumptions, but > it *will* force redesign further down the line, and the > more assumptions, the more redesign. In the case of the discussion at hand, the assumption is what? Is it the following? Assumption: The larger XML community will always use XML Schema so just create data models using XML Schema. /Roger _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324393.html Peter Flynn scripsit: > The OSI stuff was truly a nightmare to implement. An object lesson in > how not to construct a suite of protocols. Perhaps the sole legacies of > X.500 are the ghastly mess that is AD internals, and the use of the word > "distinguished" :-) Well, LDAP is hardly dead. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Would your name perchance be surname Puppet, given name Sock? --Rick Moen _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324392.html Andrew Welch scripsit: > One approach is: do nothing. Incur that cost if and when it's actually > needed, don't waste your time/effort/money on it now. I have never cared for this idea, and indeed there are many obvious counterexamples. Tim Bray's stuff on internationalization (back when it was a new and radical idea) showed that the cost of i18n at development time is about 10%, whereas after the fact it's about 100%. This is a specific case of a more general point: it is always simplest to hard-code all assumptions, but it *will* force redesign further down the line, and the more assumptions, the more redesign. Hiding the assumptions behind an abstract interface doesn't help, for that interface has hard-wired assumptions too. And so on. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Would your name perchance be surname Puppet, given name Sock? --Rick Moen _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324391.html On 01/02/12 15:21, Michael Kay wrote: > On 01/02/2012 14:44, Tei wrote: >> On 1 February 2012 13:08, David Lee<dlee@calldei.com> wrote: >> ... >>> Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance >>> was the >>> cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. >>> >> Using ascii was a adecuate solution. Solved the problem at the time, >> for the people that needed a solution. Maybe not for everyone forever, >> but that can be solved by new protocols. >> > Well, for some of the people that needed a solution, anyway. > > More to the point, the Europeans were locked in debate over ideal > standards like X.400 and ODA that solved every requirement under the > sun, while the Americans just hacked together something that worked; and > most of the Americans had never met anyone with an umlaut in their name. The OSI stuff was truly a nightmare to implement. An object lesson in how not to construct a suite of protocols. Perhaps the sole legacies of X.500 are the ghastly mess that is AD internals, and the use of the word "distinguished" :-) > Cheap and cheerful won the day, and we are all still paying the price. "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me" :-) ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324390.html On 01/02/12 17:29, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com > <mailto:mike@saxonica.com>> wrote: [...] > No, XML Schema is far worse, it's a que-perfecto �ber-spec that sees > lots of practical use. > > Interestingly, Michael, I think you are one of the exceedingly rare > people who put WXS to practical use, and I've always been in awe of your > capacity to do so. I think that 95% of WXS use is not practical at all, > but rather sheer busy-work. > > Of course that's just my blinkered anecdotal perspective, but I can't > tell you how many times I've been got on a project and they proudly say > "here's our schema!!!!!" and dump a full ream of useless, inscrutable > xsd:alphabetSoup that no one really even comes close to understanding, > and thus gets ignored throughout most of their actual processing. I have lost count of the projects whose first task was to strip all namespaces and cut the XSD down to a DTD representing only the element types that were actually used. In only a few cases have I been able to persuade them to do the modelling in RNG and recreate a minimally workable Schema. But this is solid text-document XML, with more character data content than markup :-) ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324389.html > How can I design today so that tomorrow I can nimbly change to a new validation language? Are there concrete, practical things that can be done today? Perhaps one thing that can be done is to require every data model be implemented in both XML Schema and Relax NG. What else? > One approach is: do nothing. Incur that cost if and when it's actually needed, don't waste your time/effort/money on it now. -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324388.html Costello, Roger L. scripsit: > How can I design today so that tomorrow I can nimbly change to a new > validation language? Are there concrete, practical things that can be > done today? Perhaps one thing that can be done is to require every > data model be implemented in both XML Schema and Relax NG. What else? $EMPLOYER's practice is to write all schemas in RELAX NG (except for some legacy DTDs), and convert them to XSD using Trang for delivery to implementation groups. We make sure that our sample documents are valid against both schemas. The RNG Converter at http://java.net/downloads/msv/nightly/rngconv.20060319.zip can be used to convert an XML Schema including all imports to a monolithic RELAX NG grammar. It does not preserve modularization, and ignores xsd:key, xsd:keyref, and xsd:unique declarations. -- Here lies the Christian, John Cowan judge, and poet Peter, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Who broke the laws of God cowan@ccil.org and man and metre. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324387.html Improved conversion tools would be a good start. In fact probably a precondition for the en masse migration .. Bob On 1 February 2012 19:30, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Suppose that in the future the tide shifts and the XML world moves en masse away from XML Schema to Relax NG (or some other simple, powerful language with a strong formal basis). > > Let's assume that validating XML instance documents is required. > > When the day arrives to shift to Relax NG I wish to make the shift with minimal breakage and cost. > > How can I design today so that tomorrow I can nimbly change to a new validation language? Are there concrete, practical things that can be done today? Perhaps one thing that can be done is to require every data model be implemented in both XML Schema and Relax NG. What else? > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324386.html Hi Folks, Suppose that in the future the tide shifts and the XML world moves en masse away from XML Schema to Relax NG (or some other simple, powerful language with a strong formal basis). Let's assume that validating XML instance documents is required. When the day arrives to shift to Relax NG I wish to make the shift with minimal breakage and cost. How can I design today so that tomorrow I can nimbly change to a new validation language? Are there concrete, practical things that can be done today? Perhaps one thing that can be done is to require every data model be implemented in both XML Schema and Relax NG. What else? /Roger _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324385.html On 2012-02-01 17:23, Richard Salz wrote: > My wording wasn't clear enough. > > At the time, we all thought "netascii for headers" was the right thing to > do. So much so that the question of codesets in headers *never came up.* > The entire IETF had this mindset, it was a truism, fundamental concept, > statement of fact, fundamental postulate, etc. It was not "what about > charset encodings? Never mind" > > I use the pronoun "we" on purpose; > http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec16.html#sec16 > ... Which is a good opportunity to remind people that IETF specifications are influenced by those people who care enough to show up and help. <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/wiki> Now is the time. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324384.html Original Message From: "John Cowan" > Pete Cordell scripsit: > >> How about: >> "A designer knows he has achieved something right when everybody >> complains he has done something wrong!" > > Unless the complaints are all the same. The IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard > really did suck, just like everyone said it did. It's when some are > saying "Too much!" and others "Not enough!" that you know you've hit on > the perfect compromise. I was thinking more along the lines of if nobody complains, then nobody cares. I don't think many complain about X.400 these days. Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cowan" <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> To: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> Cc: <Toby.Considine@gmail.com>; <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > Pete Cordell scripsit: > >> How about: >> "A designer knows he has achieved something right when everybody >> complains he has done something wrong!" > > Unless the complaints are all the same. The IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard > really did suck, just like everyone said it did. It's when some are > saying "Too much!" and others "Not enough!" that you know you've hit on > the perfect compromise. > > -- > John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Charles li reis, nostre emperesdre magnes, > Set anz totz pleinz ad ested in Espagnes. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324383.html Pete Cordell scripsit: > How about: > "A designer knows he has achieved something right when everybody > complains he has done something wrong!" Unless the complaints are all the same. The IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard really did suck, just like everyone said it did. It's when some are saying "Too much!" and others "Not enough!" that you know you've hit on the perfect compromise. -- John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Charles li reis, nostre emperesdre magnes, Set anz totz pleinz ad ested in Espagnes. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324382.html And the said broken-standards and specs from the mega-man committees those catastrophically ignorant specs set out to replace enabled the technologies that started the modern global web as some suffer it. A man with a solution to a problem defends the problem and so it goes. A bit more concentration on privacy and security would have been helpful but one man's suffering is another man's advantage in obtaining power and other people's property. The U.S. House committee has already approved HR 1981. len Quoting John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>: > Uche Ogbuji scripsit: > >> Never mind the small detail that said catastrophically ignorant >> and broken specs brought us the modern, global Web as we enjoy it >> today while people were toiling in mega-man committees te world over >> on que-perfecto über-specs that never really ended up seeing any >> practical use. > > Oh, you mean like XML Schema? > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > If he has seen farther than others, > it is because he is standing on a stack of dwarves. > --Mike Champion, describing Tim Berners-Lee (adapted) > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324381.html Original Message From: "Toby Considine" > "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not > when there is nothing left to add, but when there is > nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery How about: "A designer knows he has achieved something right when everybody complains he has done something wrong!" :-) Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Considine" <Toby.Considine@gmail.com> To: <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication I think it was the original developer of HTTP who was quoted along the lines of "If I had known so many people were going to use it, and how important it was going to be, I wouldn't have done such a poor job. " The work done then was successful and timely enough that it has created the time/attention/interest/need for a more nuanced solution. If they had waited for the nuances then, we might never have cared. "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery Toby Considine TC9, Inc TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop U.S. National Inst. of Standards and Tech. Smart Grid Architecture Committee Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com Phone: (919)619-2104 http://www.tcnine.com/ blog: www.NewDaedalus.com -----Original Message----- From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:54 AM To: 'Tei'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication But the funny thing is that ASCII wasnt what the browsers and servers actually implemented typically it was ISO-8859-1 Oh well the past is the past. Now we just have to pile on higher to reach higher ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:44 AM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication On 1 February 2012 13:08, David Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote: ... > > Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was the > cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. > Using ascii was a adecuate solution. Solved the problem at the time, for the people that needed a solution. Maybe not for everyone forever, but that can be solved by new protocols. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324380.html I think it was the original developer of HTTP who was quoted along the lines of "If I had known so many people were going to use it, and how important it was going to be, I wouldn't have done such a poor job. " The work done then was successful and timely enough that it has created the time/attention/interest/need for a more nuanced solution. If they had waited for the nuances then, we might never have cared. "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery Toby Considine TC9, Inc TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop U.S. National Inst. of Standards and Tech. Smart Grid Architecture Committee Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com Phone: (919)619-2104 http://www.tcnine.com/ blog: www.NewDaedalus.com -----Original Message----- From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:54 AM To: 'Tei'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication But the funny thing is that ASCII wasnt what the browsers and servers actually implemented typically it was ISO-8859-1 Oh well the past is the past. Now we just have to pile on higher to reach higher ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:44 AM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication On 1 February 2012 13:08, David Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote: ... > > Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was the > cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. > Using ascii was a adecuate solution. Solved the problem at the time, for the people that needed a solution. Maybe not for everyone forever, but that can be solved by new protocols. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324378.html On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com> wrote: > On 01/02/2012 16:19, John Cowan wrote: > >> Uche Ogbuji scripsit: >> >> Never mind the small detail that said catastrophically ignorant >>> and broken specs brought us the modern, global Web as we enjoy it >>> today while people were toiling in mega-man committees te world over >>> on que-perfecto über-specs that never really ended up seeing any >>> practical use. >>> >> Oh, you mean like XML Schema? >> >> No, XML Schema is far worse, it's a que-perfecto über-spec that sees > lots of practical use. Interestingly, Michael, I think you are one of the exceedingly rare people who put WXS to practical use, and I've always been in awe of your capacity to do so. I think that 95% of WXS use is not practical at all, but rather sheer busy-work. Of course that's just my blinkered anecdotal perspective, but I can't tell you how many times I've been got on a project and they proudly say "here's our schema!!!!!" and dump a full ream of useless, inscrutable xsd:alphabetSoup that no one really even comes close to understanding, and thus gets ignored throughout most of their actual processing. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Weblog: http://copia.ogbuji.net Poetry ed @TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324377.html On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 9:19 AM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote: > Uche Ogbuji scripsit: > > > Never mind the small detail that said catastrophically ignorant > > and broken specs brought us the modern, global Web as we enjoy it > > today while people were toiling in mega-man committees te world over > > on que-perfecto über-specs that never really ended up seeing any > > practical use. > > Oh, you mean like XML Schema? > Rimshot, John :) -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Weblog: http://copia.ogbuji.net Poetry ed @TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324376.html On 01/02/2012 16:19, John Cowan wrote: > Uche Ogbuji scripsit: > >> Never mind the small detail that said catastrophically ignorant >> and broken specs brought us the modern, global Web as we enjoy it >> today while people were toiling in mega-man committees te world over >> on que-perfecto über-specs that never really ended up seeing any >> practical use. > Oh, you mean like XML Schema? > No, XML Schema is far worse, it's a que-perfecto über-spec that sees lots of practical use. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324375.html Ignorance is a very acceptable excuse in IMO. Talking to computers was a very ASCII affair in those days (e.g. C) and it would seem reasonable that computers would talk to computers in the same way. My recollection is that for those of us who weren't Internationalisation gurus, choosing Latin-1 was considered really pushing the Internationalisation boat out! http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/HTTP2.html (1992) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8859-1 (1987) Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lee" <dlee@calldei.com> To: "'Richard Salz'" <rsalz@us.ibm.com>; <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 4:01 PM Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > Richard says > ------- > > Nobody really questioned the belief that "netascii" was required for > maximum interop. > > You want to call that Ignorance, go ahead. I'd just say "we didn't know." > ----------- > > > No exactly *not* my point. > I am saying it could *NOT* have been ignorance. I simply cannot accept > that > the spec authors were ignorant of the shortcomings of not (or under) > specifying encoding issues. They just chose to ignore them on purpose. > Probably for good reasons, like it was hard and not useful to them at the > time to hash it out. Not blaming them to come up with a spec that worked > for the use cases they put it to. Just saying it was a choice, not > "ignorance". > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > David A. Lee > dlee@calldei.com > http://www.xmlsh.org > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324374.html My wording wasn't clear enough. At the time, we all thought "netascii for headers" was the right thing to do. So much so that the question of codesets in headers *never came up.* The entire IETF had this mindset, it was a truism, fundamental concept, statement of fact, fundamental postulate, etc. It was not "what about charset encodings? Never mind" I use the pronoun "we" on purpose; http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec16.html#sec16 /r$ -- STSM, WebSphere Appliance Architect https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/soma/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324373.html Uche Ogbuji scripsit: > Never mind the small detail that said catastrophically ignorant > and broken specs brought us the modern, global Web as we enjoy it > today while people were toiling in mega-man committees te world over > on que-perfecto über-specs that never really ended up seeing any > practical use. Oh, you mean like XML Schema? -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan If he has seen farther than others, it is because he is standing on a stack of dwarves. --Mike Champion, describing Tim Berners-Lee (adapted) _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324372.html On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Richard Salz <rsalz@us.ibm.com> wrote: > > > Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was > the > > > cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. > > Nobody really questioned the belief that "netascii" was required for > maximum interop. > > You want to call that Ignorance, go ahead. I'd just say "we didn't know." > Everyone is a genius with 20/20 hindsight. I'd suggest that folks carping on and on about those catastrophically ignorant and broken specs would be better off spending their time creating the que-perfecto über-spec of tomorrow. The rest of us will be here, waiting patiently. Never mind the small detail that said catastrophically ignorant and broken specs brought us the modern, global Web as we enjoy it today while people were toiling in mega-man committees te world over on que-perfecto über-specs that never really ended up seeing any practical use. -- Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net Weblog: http://copia.ogbuji.net Poetry ed @TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/ Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com Linked-in: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/ Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche Twitter: http://twitter.com/uogbuji http://www.google.com/profiles/uche.ogbuji]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324371.html Richard says ------- Nobody really questioned the belief that "netascii" was required for maximum interop. You want to call that Ignorance, go ahead. I'd just say "we didn't know." ----------- No exactly *not* my point. I am saying it could *NOT* have been ignorance. I simply cannot accept that the spec authors were ignorant of the shortcomings of not (or under) specifying encoding issues. They just chose to ignore them on purpose. Probably for good reasons, like it was hard and not useful to them at the time to hash it out. Not blaming them to come up with a spec that worked for the use cases they put it to. Just saying it was a choice, not "ignorance". ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324370.html Hi Roger, Nice examples. Here are possibly two more approaches that may be possible for this use case (these are XSD 1.1 specific). Both of these use the wild-card element to specify variable nature of the content, and restricting the content possibilities via assertion. a) <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"> <xs:element name="suitcase"> <xs:complexType> <xs:sequence> <xs:any minOccurs="3" maxOccurs="3"/> </xs:sequence> <xs:assert test="deep-equal(*/name(), ('shorts','Hawaiian-shirts','sunglasses')) or deep-equal(*/name(), ('dress-shirt','tie','jacket'))"/> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> <xs:element name="shorts" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="Hawaiian-shirts" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="sunglasses" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="dress-shirt" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="tie" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="jacket" type="xs:string" /> </xs:schema> pros about this approach: since the wild-card in this case has specifier processContents="strict", therefore the XML instance structure validated by the wild-card is strongly typed. cons about this approach: to use the "strict" wild-card, the element declarations that validate the XML instance elements that need to be validated by the wild-card need to be global element declarations. This has side effect of passing validation of the top-most XML instance elements that are validated by these *wild-card provider* element declarations. b) <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"> <xs:element name="suitcase"> <xs:complexType> <xs:sequence> <xs:any minOccurs="3" maxOccurs="3" processContents="skip"/> </xs:sequence> <xs:assert test="not(*/*)"/> <xs:assert test="deep-equal(*/name(),('shorts','Hawaiian-shirts','sunglasses')) or deep-equal(*/name(),('dress-shirt','tie','jacket'))"/> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> </xs:schema> pros of this approach: this is a shorter schema than the first one (possible due to the wild-card "skip" mode) and it doesn't suffer from the cons of the first approach. cons of this approach: the wild-card relies entirely on the assertions to constraint (i.e to enforce some kind of typing) XML instance structure that is validated by it. for this trivial case the <assert> in this example does this correctly & completely (the first assert enforces simple content for corresponding instance elements), but to constrain deep XML fragments via <assert> may be hard (i.e simulating a generic complexType). Needless to mention: there may be various ways to solve a problem :) On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > > > Consider the problem of designing an XML Schema for a suitcase that has > different content depending on the travel purpose. For example, if going on > a vacation then the content of suitcase is shorts, Hawaiian shirts, and > sunglasses; if going on a business trip then the content of suitcase is > dress-shirt, tie, and jacket. > > The suitcase has varying content. The suitcase is called a variable content > container. > > The XML Schema Best Practice for variable content containers describes four > methods for creating variable content containers: > > Use an abstract element and element substitution > Use a <choice> element > Use an abstract type and type substitution > Use a dangling type > > http://www.xfront.com/VariableContentContainers.html > > This message describes a fifth method. It uses a schema’s context to provide > content for its variable content container. > > Method 5: Implementing variable content containers using context schemas > > The following XML Schema document -- vacation.xsd --  includes suitcase.xsd: > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> > <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" >            targetNamespace="http://www.trip.org/vacation" >            elementFormDefault="qualified"> > >     <xs:include schemaLocation="suitcase.xsd" /> > >     <xs:complexType name="clothes"> >         <xs:sequence> >             <xs:element name="shorts" type="xs:string" /> >             <xs:element name="Hawaiian-shirts" type="xs:string" /> >             <xs:element name="sunglasses" type="xs:string" /> >         </xs:sequence> >     </xs:complexType> > > </xs:schema> > > Here is a second schema document -- business-trip.xsd -- that also includes > suitcase.xsd: > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> > <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" >            targetNamespace="http://www.trip.org/business-trip" >            elementFormDefault="qualified"> > >     <xs:include schemaLocation="suitcase.xsd" /> > >     <xs:complexType name="clothes"> >         <xs:sequence> >             <xs:element name="dress-shirt" type="xs:string" /> >             <xs:element name="tie" type="xs:string" /> >             <xs:element name="jacket" type="xs:string" /> >         </xs:sequence> >     </xs:complexType> > > </xs:schema> > > Both vacation.xsd and business-trip.xsd are context for suitcase.xsd. Both > have a different namespace. Both define a complexType, clothes. > > Now let’s examine suitcase.xsd. It is a no-namespace schema document. It > declares a suitcase element and depends on context for filling in its > content (for providing a definition of “clothes”): > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> > <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"> > >     <xs:element name="suitcase" type="clothes" /> > > </xs:schema> > > If the context schema document is vacation.xsd then the content of suitcase > is shorts, Hawaiian shirts, and sunglasses. If the context schema document > is business-trip.xsd then the content of suitcase is dress-shirt, tie, and > jacket. > > Also notice that due to the Chameleon Effect the suitcase element is > namespace-coerced to the namespaces http://www.trip.org/vacation and > http://www.trip.org/business-trip, respectively. > > This example illustrates a context-dependent data model -- the suitcase > element depends on its context (environment) schemas to complete its content > model. > > Assessment > > Method 5 is similar to method 4 (dangling types) but with one important > difference: with method 4 the schema used to specify the content of the > variable content container is specified in the XML instance document whereas > with method 5 the schema used to specify the content of the variable content > container is specified in the content schema. Thus, method 4 is a run-time > association whereas method 5 is a compile-time association. That may be an > important difference for your situation. > > As with all engineering approaches, there are advantages and disadvantages. > Let’s list them for method 5. > > Advantages > > -          Dynamic: A schema which depends on its context is dynamic. It > does not statically hard-code the identity of a schema item to implement the > content. Rather, it empowers schema developers that use a context schema to > identify content. > > -          Applicable to any Schema Item: The context schema is not limited > to only complexTypes. It can provide elements, attributes, simpleTypes, > complexTypes, in fact, any schema item. Thus, this method is useful for more > than just variable content containers. > > Disadvantages > > -          Context-Dependent Validation: A schema which depends on its > context cannot be validated in isolation. It can only be validated in > combination with its context schemas. > > FAQ > > Question: suitcase.xsd isn’t valid because type=”clothes” hasn’t been > defined, right? > > You are correct. When taken independent of context suitcase.xsd is invalid. > Suitcase.xsd depends on a context schema for validity. Thus, don’t validate > suitcase.xsd. Instead, validate vacation.xsd or business-trip.xsd. > > This method turns things around 180 degrees from how one ordinarily thinks > about XML Schema design. When designing schemas one doesn’t ordinarily > think, “Oh, I’ll let the context (environment) schema documents provide the > content here.” > > While it does require a mental shift, I think method 5 may be capable of > modeling the real world in a better way. After all, in the real world > context plays a key role in most everything. Method 5 simply reflects that. > > > > Questions for you: > > > > 1.       Have you used the Method 5 approach? Did it work out well? > > 2.       What other advantages and disadvantages do you see for Method 5? > > > > /Roger -- Regards, Mukul Gandhi _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324365.html On 01/02/2012 14:44, Tei wrote: > On 1 February 2012 13:08, David Lee<dlee@calldei.com> wrote: > ... >> Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was the >> cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. >> > Using ascii was a adecuate solution. Solved the problem at the time, > for the people that needed a solution. Maybe not for everyone forever, > but that can be solved by new protocols. > Well, for some of the people that needed a solution, anyway. More to the point, the Europeans were locked in debate over ideal standards like X.400 and ODA that solved every requirement under the sun, while the Americans just hacked together something that worked; and most of the Americans had never met anyone with an umlaut in their name. Cheap and cheerful won the day, and we are all still paying the price. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324364.html > > Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was the > > cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. Nobody really questioned the belief that "netascii" was required for maximum interop. You want to call that Ignorance, go ahead. I'd just say "we didn't know." /r$ -- STSM, WebSphere Appliance Architect https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/soma/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324363.html But the funny thing is that ASCII wasnt what the browsers and servers actually implemented typically it was ISO-8859-1 Oh well the past is the past. Now we just have to pile on higher to reach higher ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: Tei [mailto:oscar.vives@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:44 AM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication On 1 February 2012 13:08, David Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote: ... > > Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was the > cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. > Using ascii was a adecuate solution. Solved the problem at the time, for the people that needed a solution. Maybe not for everyone forever, but that can be solved by new protocols. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324361.html On 1 February 2012 13:08, David Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote: ... > > Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was the > cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. > Using ascii was a adecuate solution. Solved the problem at the time, for the people that needed a solution. Maybe not for everyone forever, but that can be solved by new protocols. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324360.html Agree with Michael. Character encoding is *not* a recent problem. It may still be hard, but its not recent. Back when I was getting my Amateur Radio License (1970ihs?) I remember a strong petition to the FCC to try to allow amateur teletype to use ASCII instead of BAUDOT. 'Everyone' knew IBM machines used EBCIDIC ... (and lets not talk about Morse Code, an early multi-bit character encoding). Even those old DOS boxes had 'CodePages'. People talk about DOS a lot but really most of the early internet machines were Unix. Of course Unix (now Linux) still doesn't solve character encoding issues very well. Encoding still is a hard problem but I can't accept that Ignorance was the cause of it missing from the HTTP specs. ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike@saxonica.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 3:40 AM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >The distinction between bytes and characters is a fairly recent development. When I bought my first computer in the 1990s it came with Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS 6.22, and the german versions of those use different "code pages"... In the Computer Science Tripos at Cambridge University they always used to ask a few open-ended questions, and I remember one from the early 1970s along the lines "Why is character encoding such a difficult thing to get right?" Forty years on, getting it right hasn't become any easier. However, I think any student answering that question would have been expected to understand the difference between characters and the bytes used to represent them. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324358.html ===> Tei sez Security conscient people seems to not like this idea, because MITM attacks are easy with selfsigned certs. <==== Of course its not perfect, practically nothing is. But my point is using SSL with self-signed certificates is more vastly more secure than using HTTP with plain text. But the browsers give a Horrendously scary warning if you use SSL with self-signed certificates and say nothing at all for plain text HTTP (except the lack of a microscopic lock icon). This leads many (most?) web site developers to just stick to plain HTTP. Thus decreasing security overall I simply don't understand that. -David ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324356.html On 30 January 2012 15:44, David Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote: > Were back to the problem that SSL doesn't solve the problem (today)  it was > originally intended to solve.   But it happens to solve *this* problem (as > long as you ignore the fact that both ends may be insecure - in which case > all bets are off). > > But yes the crux is that Authentication in pure HTTP is either insecure or > hard. > That's just the way it is (as far as I know). > > <rant> > This is why a particular annoyance of mine is the false-sense-of-security of > CA signed certificates. > If browsers didn't put up an ugly warning about how scary a self-signed > certificate was then more people would use SSL and the internet would be > more secure. > But if you use plain HTTP you don't get a warning - just insecurity. > Why is it like this ? My only guess ... "Follow the money ..." ? > > </rant> > Security conscient people seems to not like this idea, because MITM attacks are easy with selfsigned certs. Then recently some rogue certificates where generated, for google and other domains. The next time you pay something with Paypal, you could be using some mitm Iranian server, or perhaps some CIA server. For two years USA was reading Megavideo CEO emails. So storage is another problem (don't put your secrets on the cloud as cleartext), have your data in non-USA service. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324355.html >The distinction between bytes and characters is a fairly recent development. When I bought my first computer in the 1990s it came with Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS 6.22, and the german versions of those use different "code pages"... In the Computer Science Tripos at Cambridge University they always used to ask a few open-ended questions, and I remember one from the early 1970s along the lines "Why is character encoding such a difficult thing to get right?" Forty years on, getting it right hasn't become any easier. However, I think any student answering that question would have been expected to understand the difference between characters and the bytes used to represent them. Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324353.html * David Lee wrote: >What shocks *me* is that the intent of base64 is stated to allow more >characters then HTTP headers allow but then due to the lack of >encoding/charset specification allows precious few. >A lot of work for almost nothing. A simple insertion of the text "UTF8 >encoded prior to base64" would have nailed it. The distinction between bytes and characters is a fairly recent develop- ment. When I bought my first computer in the 1990s it came with Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS 6.22, and the german versions of those use different "code pages", meaning plain text files with Umlauts that I created in DOS did not work right under Windows and vice versa. Some years later when I got an Internet connection at home I chatted with an egyptian girl living egypt over ICQ. She wanted to send me a letter and asked for my address, and she asked about the characters in my name and address and I tried hard to explain umlauts and that I use "oe" in my "nickname" as transliteration... and eventually I got her letter containing mojibake where the umlauts should have gone. It's not something that was wired into people's heads at the time, and we are still suffering from that. If I put my proper name into the From header I will without a doubt see my name mangled in replies or online archives shortly after. Heck, in back in 2004 I filed comments on W3C's Character Model for the World Wide Web specification, developed by the I18N Working Group there, through an online form they developed, and my name came out as mojibake in the list archive where the comments were copied to. Note that this is in part due to missing infrastructure, in the DOS/Win- dows case, apart from heuristics software would have had no means to de- cide whether something was a Windows plain text file or a DOS plain text file. Months ago I made a Perl script that renames audio files based on meta data, and the built-in renaming function did not work right, I had to use a special Win32::Unicode::File module to get the right names. We are still paying this technical debt off. (The authors of RFC 2617 should probably have known better due to RFC 2277, it might be interesting to find out why/if this issue was missed.) -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201202/msg1000324352.html On 31/01/12 20:54, Markus Braun wrote: > I have this code: > > #/usr/bin/env ruby > require 'rubygems' > require 'nokogiri' > require 'open-uri' > > doc = > Nokogiri::HTML(open("http://mobile.bahn.de/bin/mobil/bhftafel.exe/dox?input=Richard-Strauss-Stra%DFe%2C+M%FCnchen%23625127&date=27.01.12&time=20%3A41&productsFilter=1111111111000000&REQTrain_name=&maxJourneys=10&start=Suchen&boardType=Abfahrt&ao=yes")) > doc = doc.xpath('//div').each do |node| > doc.remove_namespaces! > puts node.text > end > > > but get to many blank spaces... > > how can i remove it? Ask in the right place, like comp.lang.ruby This mailing list is for XML, not Ruby. >> From: liam@w3.org [snip] >> Sometimes working out who to ask is a large part of getting an answer. Amen ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324351.html I have this code: #/usr/bin/env rubyrequire 'rubygems'require 'nokogiri'require 'open-uri' doc = Nokogiri::HTML(open("http://mobile.bahn.de/bin/mobil/bhftafel.exe/dox?input=Richard-Strauss-Stra%DFe%2C+M%FCnchen%23625127&date=27.01.12&time=20%3A41&productsFilter=1111111111000000&REQTrain_name=&maxJourneys=10&start=Suchen&boardType=Abfahrt&ao=yes"))doc = doc.xpath('//div').each do |node|doc.remove_namespaces! puts node.textend but get to many blank spaces... how can i remove it? thank you marcus > From: liam@w3.org > To: charmed21muc@hotmail.com > CC: xml-dev@lists.xml.org > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:43:42 -0500 > Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XML Parse > > On Mon, 2012-01-30 at 21:41 +0000, Markus Braun wrote: > > > Hi like to code something like this: > > > > https://github.com/muhkuh0815/siriproxy-Eyelp > > > > so the entry is over the voice... > > This would involve using Apple APIs I expect. No idea, there's not even > an apple store here, and I don't see people using iphones... > > > at the moment i have this example but in this example the > > searchmachine has a backend in xml and formats the text in the right > > form. > > > > but the m.bahn.de has not an xml format when i submit a request. > > So you have three choices: > (1) write (or uuse) a backend at m.bahn.de, or talk with them about it > (2) write a proxy on another system that converts the results, or > (3) write ruby code for your portable telephone to handle the actual > results. > > None of these relates to XML - the plugin on git you mention appears to > use JSON and not XML. > > So, you need help from someone programming in the ruby environment on an > iphone with siri, it seems. Sometimes working out who to ask is a large > part of getting an answer. > > Liam > > > -- > Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ > Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324350.html Hi Folks, Consider the problem of designing an XML Schema for a suitcase that has different content depending on the travel purpose. For example, if going on a vacation then the content of suitcase is shorts, Hawaiian shirts, and sunglasses; if going on a business trip then the content of suitcase is dress-shirt, tie, and jacket. The suitcase has varying content. The suitcase is called a variable content container. The XML Schema Best Practice for variable content containers describes four methods for creating variable content containers: 1. Use an abstract element and element substitution 2. Use a <choice> element 3. Use an abstract type and type substitution 4. Use a dangling type http://www.xfront.com/VariableContentContainers.html This message describes a fifth method. It uses a schema's context to provide content for its variable content container. Method 5: Implementing variable content containers using context schemas The following XML Schema document -- vacation.xsd -- includes suitcase.xsd: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" targetNamespace="http://www.trip.org/vacation" elementFormDefault="qualified"> <xs:include schemaLocation="suitcase.xsd" /> <xs:complexType name="clothes"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element name="shorts" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="Hawaiian-shirts" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="sunglasses" type="xs:string" /> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:schema> Here is a second schema document -- business-trip.xsd -- that also includes suitcase.xsd: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" targetNamespace="http://www.trip.org/business-trip" elementFormDefault="qualified"> <xs:include schemaLocation="suitcase.xsd" /> <xs:complexType name="clothes"> <xs:sequence> <xs:element name="dress-shirt" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="tie" type="xs:string" /> <xs:element name="jacket" type="xs:string" /> </xs:sequence> </xs:complexType> </xs:schema> Both vacation.xsd and business-trip.xsd are context for suitcase.xsd. Both have a different namespace. Both define a complexType, clothes. Now let's examine suitcase.xsd. It is a no-namespace schema document. It declares a suitcase element and depends on context for filling in its content (for providing a definition of "clothes"): <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"> <xs:element name="suitcase" type="clothes" /> </xs:schema> If the context schema document is vacation.xsd then the content of suitcase is shorts, Hawaiian shirts, and sunglasses. If the context schema document is business-trip.xsd then the content of suitcase is dress-shirt, tie, and jacket. Also notice that due to the Chameleon Effect the suitcase element is namespace-coerced to the namespaces http://www.trip.org/vacation and http://www.trip.org/business-trip, respectively. This example illustrates a context-dependent data model -- the suitcase element depends on its context (environment) schemas to complete its content model. Assessment Method 5 is similar to method 4 (dangling types) but with one important difference: with method 4 the schema used to specify the content of the variable content container is specified in the XML instance document whereas with method 5 the schema used to specify the content of the variable content container is specified in the content schema. Thus, method 4 is a run-time association whereas method 5 is a compile-time association. That may be an important difference for your situation. As with all engineering approaches, there are advantages and disadvantages. Let's list them for method 5. Advantages - Dynamic: A schema which depends on its context is dynamic. It does not statically hard-code the identity of a schema item to implement the content. Rather, it empowers schema developers that use a context schema to identify content. - Applicable to any Schema Item: The context schema is not limited to only complexTypes. It can provide elements, attributes, simpleTypes, complexTypes, in fact, any schema item. Thus, this method is useful for more than just variable content containers. Disadvantages - Context-Dependent Validation: A schema which depends on its context cannot be validated in isolation. It can only be validated in combination with its context schemas. FAQ Question: suitcase.xsd isn't valid because type="clothes" hasn't been defined, right? You are correct. When taken independent of context suitcase.xsd is invalid. Suitcase.xsd depends on a context schema for validity. Thus, don't validate suitcase.xsd. Instead, validate vacation.xsd or business-trip.xsd. This method turns things around 180 degrees from how one ordinarily thinks about XML Schema design. When designing schemas one doesn't ordinarily think, "Oh, I'll let the context (environment) schema documents provide the content here." While it does require a mental shift, I think method 5 may be capable of modeling the real world in a better way. After all, in the real world context plays a key role in most everything. Method 5 simply reflects that. Questions for you: 1. Have you used the Method 5 approach? Did it work out well? 2. What other advantages and disadvantages do you see for Method 5? /Roger]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324348.html On 2012-01-31 00:43, David Lee wrote: > > --- David > A simple insertion of the text "UTF8 > encoded prior to base64" would have nailed it. > > ------ Julian > If you actually had read the spec, you would know why that doesn't work. > > Unless you mean: "back in 1997" (RFC 2068). > --------- > Yes I "actually" read the spec but no I dont know why that wouldn't work. > Maybe you could enlighten me ? Many UAs use ISO-8859-1, and many servers expect that. > ... Best regards, Julian _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324347.html On Mon, 2012-01-30 at 21:41 +0000, Markus Braun wrote: > Hi like to code something like this: > > https://github.com/muhkuh0815/siriproxy-Eyelp > > so the entry is over the voice... This would involve using Apple APIs I expect. No idea, there's not even an apple store here, and I don't see people using iphones... > at the moment i have this example but in this example the > searchmachine has a backend in xml and formats the text in the right > form. > > but the m.bahn.de has not an xml format when i submit a request. So you have three choices: (1) write (or uuse) a backend at m.bahn.de, or talk with them about it (2) write a proxy on another system that converts the results, or (3) write ruby code for your portable telephone to handle the actual results. None of these relates to XML - the plugin on git you mention appears to use JSON and not XML. So, you need help from someone programming in the ruby environment on an iphone with siri, it seems. Sometimes working out who to ask is a large part of getting an answer. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324346.html --- David A simple insertion of the text "UTF8 encoded prior to base64" would have nailed it. ------ Julian If you actually had read the spec, you would know why that doesn't work. Unless you mean: "back in 1997" (RFC 2068). --------- Yes I "actually" read the spec but no I dont know why that wouldn't work. Maybe you could enlighten me ? Maybe it's that time travel thing where UTF8 was invented after HTTP ... ? Is that to which you were referring ? I've been around for both but honestly can't remember which came first, the chicken or the egg. ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324345.html On 2012-01-29 20:53, David Lee wrote: > More study and I lucked on a spec > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reschke-basicauth-enc-00.html -> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-basicauth-enc-latest.html> > Seems a known and open problem (how long has this been in the wild ? How > did it ever work ?) It "worked" as long everybody was happy with ISO-8859-1. > So follow-on question ... > > Does anyone know if this spec or anything like it has been adopted ? No, it hasn't been adopted, but I'm trying to get it to IETF Last Call. > Or do we just all assume the world is "USASCII" as usual ? I don't think that's sufficient :-) Best regards, Julian _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324344.html On 2012-01-30 00:49, David Lee wrote: > Great link Petite ! Finally someone put words to my vague opinions. > As for Basic Authentication base64 ... Why the shock ? > The specs clearly state base64 is not intended for "encryption" ... > > And the facts (IMHO) is that Basic Authentication is no more or less secure > then > entering user& password in form fields. > > What shocks *me* is that the intent of base64 is stated to allow more > characters then HTTP headers allow but then due to the lack of > encoding/charset specification allows precious few. > A lot of work for almost nothing. A simple insertion of the text "UTF8 > encoded prior to base64" would have nailed it. > ... If you actually had read the spec, you would know why that doesn't work. Unless you mean: "back in 1997" (RFC 2068). Best regards, Julian _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324343.html > Your question is still very vague: > by "the script" you mean the program you are writing in ruby that runs > on a mobile phone? on a Web server? where? > by "where i give the input" do you mean that you are using the program > and enter input with a keyboard? or that the user enters input and you > as a programmer must have previously set up the program to handle that > input? Or just that you are not sure how to write code to put the name > of the city into the URL? Hi like to code something like this: https://github.com/muhkuh0815/siriproxy-Eyelp so the entry is over the voice... at the moment i have this example but in this example the searchmachine has a backend in xml and formats the text in the right form. but the m.bahn.de has not an xml format when i submit a request. That is my big problem. Any idea and chance to solve this problem? thank you marcus]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324342.html > > password over the wire. It's worse because > > Arrgh! See what happened -- I stopped typing to let my brain catch up, and it never did.... :) Digest is worse because it never spec'd anything other than MD5, although it allowed "space" in the protocol for it. (SHA was published a half-dozen years before.) Unless the browser serializes requests (i.e., one image at a time), full integrity protection with digest usually [not always, see the last part of section 3.2.3 of RFC 2617 and sec 4.5 on replay] doubles the number of HTTP messages. At that point, you might as well give up and use SSL/TLS, and once you've done that, the temptation to use basic-auth (but mom, everybody else does) is too generally too great to resist. /r$ -- STSM, WebSphere Appliance Architect https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/soma/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324338.html On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:31 PM, Richard Salz wrote: > It's worse because Soon! In a theatre near you! Such a cliffhanger! _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324337.html Richard Salz scripsit: > The problem with basic-auth is that it requires the name/password to be > sent on every single request. The more a password is used, the more it as > at-risk. Even over SSL/TLS. Digest is better because it never sends the > password over the wire. It's worse because Arrgh! > Hope this helps. Let's try that again, eh? -- Knowledge studies others / Wisdom is self-known; John Cowan Muscle masters brothers / Self-mastery is bone; cowan@ccil.org Content need never borrow / Ambition wanders blind; http://ccil.org/~cowan Vitality cleaves to the marrow / Leaving death behind. --Tao 33 (Bynner) _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324336.html > My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure. Well, sending name/password over the Internet in the clear is bad. :) Basic-auth is just name/password encoded in base64. It's not encrypted, nobody treats base64 as encryption. But back when basic-auth was created (like pre-apache golden oldie days), everyone on the internet was Gentle and Kind and followed Stimson's rule of "gentlemen don't read each other's mail." One could say that base64 was chosen to future-proof and allow for multi-charset data, but I think that's kinda revisionist. At the time of its definition, multiple charsets were not defined or in use in IETF protocol headers. > I'd be > surprised if modern browsers support it because it opens the way to a > man-in-the-middle downgrade attack. I think you're confused. Every single browser understands and supports basic-auth, and the HTTP status code for auth-required (401). An MITM downgrade is when the adversary manages to trick both sides into using weaker security mechanisms, such as using DES insead of AES-256. Digest is susceptible to MITM -- is that what you meant? The problem with basic-auth is that it requires the name/password to be sent on every single request. The more a password is used, the more it as at-risk. Even over SSL/TLS. Digest is better because it never sends the password over the wire. It's worse because Hope this helps. /r$ -- STSM, WebSphere Appliance Architect https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/soma/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324335.html Pete Cordell scripsit: > I'm surprised I'm in a minority of one on this. I've snipped out lots of > comments in a reply, but my basic position is that we shouldn't be > adopting a "buyer beware" position when it comes to handling passwords > when we know there are better ways to do it, and we have known that for > the best part of a decade. We (if by "we" you mean human beings collectively) have known for decades that two-factor authentication (two of "what you have", "what you know", and "what you are") is the minimum requirement for decent security. In particular passwords are a crappy implementation of "what you know", since people most of the time either don't know them (the post-it on the monitor) or do know them and so can anyone else. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Statistics don't help a great deal in making important decisions. Most people have more than the average number of feet, but I'm not about to start a company selling shoes in threes. --Ross Gardler _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324334.html Were back to the problem that SSL doesn't solve the problem (today) it was originally intended to solve. But it happens to solve *this* problem (as long as you ignore the fact that both ends may be insecure - in which case all bets are off). But yes the crux is that Authentication in pure HTTP is either insecure or hard. That's just the way it is (as far as I know). <rant> This is why a particular annoyance of mine is the false-sense-of-security of CA signed certificates. If browsers didn't put up an ugly warning about how scary a self-signed certificate was then more people would use SSL and the internet would be more secure. But if you use plain HTTP you don't get a warning - just insecurity. Why is it like this ? My only guess ... "Follow the money ..." ? </rant> ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: Petite Abeille [mailto:petite.abeille@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:18 AM To: xml-dev Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication On Jan 30, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > A quick question before I do though, does Digest require the server to have access to the password in clear text form, whereas Basic allows the server to store the password in some hashed form? That's the crux of it: digest is not worth the complications IMO. If you care about the integrity of the transport channel, use TLS. If you use TLS, basic is all what you need. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324333.html On Jan 30, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > A quick question before I do though, does Digest require the server to have access to the password in clear text form, whereas Basic allows the server to store the password in some hashed form? That's the crux of it: digest is not worth the complications IMO. If you care about the integrity of the transport channel, use TLS. If you use TLS, basic is all what you need. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324332.html The alternative is to make sure everything is over SSL then Basic is just as secure (as anything else :) ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: Pete Cordell [mailto:petexmldev@codalogic.com] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 8:52 AM To: Greg Hunt Cc: xml-dev Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication I'm surprised I'm in a minority of one on this. I've snipped out lots of comments in a reply, but my basic position is that we shouldn't be adopting a "buyer beware" position when it comes to handling passwords when we know there are better ways to do it, and we have known that for the best part of a decade. The upside of this is that I will be delving into my server configs and changing them to use Digest if I can. So I'm pleased that the topic has been raised from that point of view. A quick question before I do though, does Digest require the server to have access to the password in clear text form, whereas Basic allows the server to store the password in some hashed form? Thanks, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Hunt" <greg@firmansyah.com> To: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> Cc: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > Surely most of us here get paid to know how things work and what their > strengths and weaknesses are. The level of knowledge is sadly lower than > it should be, but to paraphrase you, thats no excuse. I don't think that > digest was part of HTTP 1.0 and retiring standards is difficult. > > This, and the original issue, about character sets, is just evidence that > things change; the industry's accepted level of knowledge and ideas of > good > practice evolves and its up to us to understand the history. The > difficulty in using anything other than 8859-1 in post data (not exactly a > lot of difficulty, but enough to cause a recurring class of unicode > handling bug that people ring me up about) is probably another wrinkle > related to what caused the lack of specification of the character set > hidden in the base64 encoding. The past had a different set of problems > to > the present. There was a page linked to earlier in this thread that > asserted that the SSL threat model is entirely wrong, Perhaps today that > is > true, but if you go back to the mid 90s there were large scale intrusions > into network core routers, the network WAS relatively insecure and the > security problem was not mostly trojans and key loggers on Windows > desktops. We have to live with the past, more and more of it in IT as time > goes by. > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Pete Cordell > <petexmldev@codalogic.com>wrote: > >> Original Message From: "Michael Sokolov" >> >> (I've flipped the order of Michael's reply to make the more important >> comment first.) >> >> >> But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people >>> (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, >>> so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that >>> should be promulgated. >>> >> >> I think that's the rub. We all know that passwords should be kept >> secret, >> and for a mechanism whose primary purpose is to exchange passwords it >> surely >> has a duty of care to help maintain that secrecy. Sending passwords over >> the Internet in the clear seems no more acceptable than storing passwords >> in >> a file in plain text. No serious system would do the latter, so I think >> it's only reasonable that we should object when systems do the former. >> "We >> never said it was secure" is not an acceptable defence IMHO. >> >> >> It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. >> EG >>> if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a >>> mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might >>> impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has >>> to >>> be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you >>> lock >>> your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify >>> themselves. >>> >> >> True, but it doesn't seem so much harder to always use Digest. Surely >> it's >> just calling a different function for most people? (Digest may have its >> weaknesses too, but that's a reason for making a stronger scheme rather >> than >> giving up completely.) >> >> I feel a bit like a disgruntled customer who's found his product doesn't >> do >> what he thought it did based on the shining ads who on ringing into a >> help >> line is told that I should have read the small print on page 215 :-) >> >> >> Pete Cordell >> Codalogic Ltd >> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >> for more info >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" >> <sokolov@ifactory.com >> > >> To: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> >> Cc: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" >> <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:31 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >> >> >> It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. >> EG >>> if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a >>> mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might >>> impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has >>> to >>> be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you >>> lock >>> your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify >>> themselves. >>> >>> But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people >>> (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, >>> so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that >>> should be promulgated. >>> >>> -Mike >>> >>> On 1/29/2012 5:15 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >>> >>>> Holy s*** you're right. Just used wireshark on some HTTP exchanges. >>>> All >>>> this talk about online security and they effectively allow Base64 as an >>>> 'encryption' algorithm! People should go to jail for that! Still >>>> think >>>> it's a bad, bad, bad idea. SIP has deprecated it and Twitter has >>>> disabled it. As I said, I'm pretty sure the IETF wouldn't accept >>>> something similar to it these days. >>>> >>>> Pete Cordell >>>> Codalogic Ltd >>>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >>>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >>>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >>>> for more info >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cordell" >>>> <petexmldev@codalogic.com> >>>> To: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" >>>> <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:35 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic >>>> Authentication >>>> >>>> >>>> Convenient doesn't mean good though. I think it _can_ be used over >>>> TLS, >>>>> but since HTTP needs to support other schemes for non-TLS I can't see >>>>> the point. I don't think it would accepted if it was introduced today. >>>>> >>>>> Pete Cordell >>>>> Codalogic Ltd >>>>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >>>>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >>>>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >>>>> for more info >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petite Abeille" >>>>> <petite.abeille@gmail.com> >>>>> To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:33 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic >>>>> Authentication >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used over >>>>> TLS if you care about this kind of things. >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>>> ___________ >>>>> >>>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>>> >>>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>>> Or unsubscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> subscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-d ev/> >>>>> List Guidelines: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.o rg/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>>> ___________ >>>>> >>>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>>> >>>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>>> Or unsubscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> subscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-d ev/> >>>>> List Guidelines: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.o rg/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>> ___________ >>>> >>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>> >>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>> Or unsubscribe: >>>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> subscribe: >>>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> List archive: >>>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-d ev/> >>>> List Guidelines: >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.o rg/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>> ___________ >>> >>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>> >>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>> Or unsubscribe: >>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>> subscribe: >>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>> List archive: >>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-d ev/> >>> List Guidelines: >>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.o rg/maillists/guidelines.php> >>> >>> >> >> ______________________________**______________________________** >> ___________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >> Or unsubscribe: >> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >> subscribe: >> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >> List archive: >> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-d ev/> >> List Guidelines: >> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.o rg/maillists/guidelines.php> >> >> > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324331.html I'm surprised I'm in a minority of one on this. I've snipped out lots of comments in a reply, but my basic position is that we shouldn't be adopting a "buyer beware" position when it comes to handling passwords when we know there are better ways to do it, and we have known that for the best part of a decade. The upside of this is that I will be delving into my server configs and changing them to use Digest if I can. So I'm pleased that the topic has been raised from that point of view. A quick question before I do though, does Digest require the server to have access to the password in clear text form, whereas Basic allows the server to store the password in some hashed form? Thanks, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Hunt" <greg@firmansyah.com> To: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> Cc: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > Surely most of us here get paid to know how things work and what their > strengths and weaknesses are. The level of knowledge is sadly lower than > it should be, but to paraphrase you, thats no excuse. I don't think that > digest was part of HTTP 1.0 and retiring standards is difficult. > > This, and the original issue, about character sets, is just evidence that > things change; the industry's accepted level of knowledge and ideas of > good > practice evolves and its up to us to understand the history. The > difficulty in using anything other than 8859-1 in post data (not exactly a > lot of difficulty, but enough to cause a recurring class of unicode > handling bug that people ring me up about) is probably another wrinkle > related to what caused the lack of specification of the character set > hidden in the base64 encoding. The past had a different set of problems > to > the present. There was a page linked to earlier in this thread that > asserted that the SSL threat model is entirely wrong, Perhaps today that > is > true, but if you go back to the mid 90s there were large scale intrusions > into network core routers, the network WAS relatively insecure and the > security problem was not mostly trojans and key loggers on Windows > desktops. We have to live with the past, more and more of it in IT as time > goes by. > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Pete Cordell > <petexmldev@codalogic.com>wrote: > >> Original Message From: "Michael Sokolov" >> >> (I've flipped the order of Michael's reply to make the more important >> comment first.) >> >> >> But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people >>> (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, >>> so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that >>> should be promulgated. >>> >> >> I think that's the rub. We all know that passwords should be kept >> secret, >> and for a mechanism whose primary purpose is to exchange passwords it >> surely >> has a duty of care to help maintain that secrecy. Sending passwords over >> the Internet in the clear seems no more acceptable than storing passwords >> in >> a file in plain text. No serious system would do the latter, so I think >> it's only reasonable that we should object when systems do the former. >> "We >> never said it was secure" is not an acceptable defence IMHO. >> >> >> It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. >> EG >>> if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a >>> mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might >>> impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has >>> to >>> be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you >>> lock >>> your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify >>> themselves. >>> >> >> True, but it doesn't seem so much harder to always use Digest. Surely >> it's >> just calling a different function for most people? (Digest may have its >> weaknesses too, but that's a reason for making a stronger scheme rather >> than >> giving up completely.) >> >> I feel a bit like a disgruntled customer who's found his product doesn't >> do >> what he thought it did based on the shining ads who on ringing into a >> help >> line is told that I should have read the small print on page 215 :-) >> >> >> Pete Cordell >> Codalogic Ltd >> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >> for more info >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" >> <sokolov@ifactory.com >> > >> To: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> >> Cc: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" >> <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:31 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >> >> >> It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. >> EG >>> if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a >>> mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might >>> impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has >>> to >>> be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you >>> lock >>> your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify >>> themselves. >>> >>> But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people >>> (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, >>> so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that >>> should be promulgated. >>> >>> -Mike >>> >>> On 1/29/2012 5:15 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >>> >>>> Holy s*** you're right. Just used wireshark on some HTTP exchanges. >>>> All >>>> this talk about online security and they effectively allow Base64 as an >>>> 'encryption' algorithm! People should go to jail for that! Still >>>> think >>>> it's a bad, bad, bad idea. SIP has deprecated it and Twitter has >>>> disabled it. As I said, I'm pretty sure the IETF wouldn't accept >>>> something similar to it these days. >>>> >>>> Pete Cordell >>>> Codalogic Ltd >>>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >>>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >>>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >>>> for more info >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cordell" >>>> <petexmldev@codalogic.com> >>>> To: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" >>>> <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:35 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic >>>> Authentication >>>> >>>> >>>> Convenient doesn't mean good though. I think it _can_ be used over >>>> TLS, >>>>> but since HTTP needs to support other schemes for non-TLS I can't see >>>>> the point. I don't think it would accepted if it was introduced today. >>>>> >>>>> Pete Cordell >>>>> Codalogic Ltd >>>>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >>>>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >>>>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >>>>> for more info >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petite Abeille" >>>>> <petite.abeille@gmail.com> >>>>> To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:33 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic >>>>> Authentication >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used over >>>>> TLS if you care about this kind of things. >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>>> ___________ >>>>> >>>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>>> >>>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>>> Or unsubscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> subscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >>>>> List Guidelines: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>>> ___________ >>>>> >>>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>>> >>>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>>> Or unsubscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> subscribe: >>>>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >>>>> List Guidelines: >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>> ___________ >>>> >>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>> >>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>> Or unsubscribe: >>>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> subscribe: >>>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> List archive: >>>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >>>> List Guidelines: >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>> ___________ >>> >>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>> >>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>> Or unsubscribe: >>> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>> subscribe: >>> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>> List archive: >>> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >>> List Guidelines: >>> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >>> >>> >> >> ______________________________**______________________________** >> ___________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: >> http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >> Or unsubscribe: >> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >> subscribe: >> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >> List archive: >> http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >> List Guidelines: >> http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >> >> > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324329.html Surely most of us here get paid to know how things work and what their strengths and weaknesses are. The level of knowledge is sadly lower than it should be, but to paraphrase you, thats no excuse. I don't think that digest was part of HTTP 1.0 and retiring standards is difficult. This, and the original issue, about character sets, is just evidence that things change; the industry's accepted level of knowledge and ideas of good practice evolves and its up to us to understand the history. The difficulty in using anything other than 8859-1 in post data (not exactly a lot of difficulty, but enough to cause a recurring class of unicode handling bug that people ring me up about) is probably another wrinkle related to what caused the lack of specification of the character set hidden in the base64 encoding. The past had a different set of problems to the present. There was a page linked to earlier in this thread that asserted that the SSL threat model is entirely wrong, Perhaps today that is true, but if you go back to the mid 90s there were large scale intrusions into network core routers, the network WAS relatively insecure and the security problem was not mostly trojans and key loggers on Windows desktops. We have to live with the past, more and more of it in IT as time goes by. On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Pete Cordell <petexmldev@codalogic.com>wrote: > Original Message From: "Michael Sokolov" > > (I've flipped the order of Michael's reply to make the more important > comment first.) > > > But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people >> (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, >> so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that >> should be promulgated. >> > > I think that's the rub. We all know that passwords should be kept secret, > and for a mechanism whose primary purpose is to exchange passwords it > surely > has a duty of care to help maintain that secrecy. Sending passwords over > the Internet in the clear seems no more acceptable than storing passwords > in > a file in plain text. No serious system would do the latter, so I think > it's only reasonable that we should object when systems do the former. "We > never said it was secure" is not an acceptable defence IMHO. > > > It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. EG >> if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a >> mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might >> impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has to >> be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you lock >> your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify >> themselves. >> > > True, but it doesn't seem so much harder to always use Digest. Surely it's > just calling a different function for most people? (Digest may have its > weaknesses too, but that's a reason for making a stronger scheme rather > than > giving up completely.) > > I feel a bit like a disgruntled customer who's found his product doesn't do > what he thought it did based on the shining ads who on ringing into a help > line is told that I should have read the small print on page 215 :-) > > > Pete Cordell > Codalogic Ltd > Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML > data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. > Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com > for more info > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" <sokolov@ifactory.com > > > To: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> > Cc: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" > <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > > > It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. EG >> if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a >> mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might >> impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has to >> be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you lock >> your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify >> themselves. >> >> But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people >> (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, >> so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that >> should be promulgated. >> >> -Mike >> >> On 1/29/2012 5:15 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >> >>> Holy s*** you're right. Just used wireshark on some HTTP exchanges. All >>> this talk about online security and they effectively allow Base64 as an >>> 'encryption' algorithm! People should go to jail for that! Still think >>> it's a bad, bad, bad idea. SIP has deprecated it and Twitter has >>> disabled it. As I said, I'm pretty sure the IETF wouldn't accept >>> something similar to it these days. >>> >>> Pete Cordell >>> Codalogic Ltd >>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >>> for more info >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cordell" >>> <petexmldev@codalogic.com> >>> To: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" >>> <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:35 PM >>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >>> >>> >>> Convenient doesn't mean good though. I think it _can_ be used over TLS, >>>> but since HTTP needs to support other schemes for non-TLS I can't see >>>> the point. I don't think it would accepted if it was introduced today. >>>> >>>> Pete Cordell >>>> Codalogic Ltd >>>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >>>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >>>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >>>> for more info >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petite Abeille" >>>> <petite.abeille@gmail.com> >>>> To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:33 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >>>> >>>> My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure >>>>> >>>> >>>> Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used over >>>> TLS if you care about this kind of things. >>>> >>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>> ___________ >>>> >>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>> >>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >>>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>>> ___________ >>>> >>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>>> >>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >>>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ______________________________**______________________________** >>> ___________ >>> >>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>> >>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >>> >>> >> >> ______________________________**______________________________** >> ___________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> >> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> >> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> >> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> >> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> >> >> > > ______________________________**______________________________** > ___________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/**mlmanage/<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/> > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org> > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.**org<xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org> > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/**xml-dev/<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/> > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/**maillists/guidelines.php<http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php> > >]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324328.html Original Message From: "Michael Sokolov" (I've flipped the order of Michael's reply to make the more important comment first.) > But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people > (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, > so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that > should be promulgated. I think that's the rub. We all know that passwords should be kept secret, and for a mechanism whose primary purpose is to exchange passwords it surely has a duty of care to help maintain that secrecy. Sending passwords over the Internet in the clear seems no more acceptable than storing passwords in a file in plain text. No serious system would do the latter, so I think it's only reasonable that we should object when systems do the former. "We never said it was secure" is not an acceptable defence IMHO. > It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. EG > if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a > mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might > impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has to > be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you lock > your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify > themselves. True, but it doesn't seem so much harder to always use Digest. Surely it's just calling a different function for most people? (Digest may have its weaknesses too, but that's a reason for making a stronger scheme rather than giving up completely.) I feel a bit like a disgruntled customer who's found his product doesn't do what he thought it did based on the shining ads who on ringing into a help line is told that I should have read the small print on page 215 :-) Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" <sokolov@ifactory.com> To: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> Cc: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. EG > if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a > mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might > impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has to > be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you lock > your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify > themselves. > > But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people > (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, > so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that > should be promulgated. > > -Mike > > On 1/29/2012 5:15 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >> Holy s*** you're right. Just used wireshark on some HTTP exchanges. All >> this talk about online security and they effectively allow Base64 as an >> 'encryption' algorithm! People should go to jail for that! Still think >> it's a bad, bad, bad idea. SIP has deprecated it and Twitter has >> disabled it. As I said, I'm pretty sure the IETF wouldn't accept >> something similar to it these days. >> >> Pete Cordell >> Codalogic Ltd >> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >> for more info >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cordell" >> <petexmldev@codalogic.com> >> To: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" >> <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >> >> >>> Convenient doesn't mean good though. I think it _can_ be used over TLS, >>> but since HTTP needs to support other schemes for non-TLS I can't see >>> the point. I don't think it would accepted if it was introduced today. >>> >>> Pete Cordell >>> Codalogic Ltd >>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >>> for more info >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petite Abeille" >>> <petite.abeille@gmail.com> >>> To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:33 PM >>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >>> >>>> My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure >>> >>> Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used over >>> TLS if you care about this kind of things. >>> >>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>> >>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org >>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org >>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >>> >>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org >>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org >>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org >> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org >> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >> > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324327.html Great link Petite ! Finally someone put words to my vague opinions. As for Basic Authentication base64 ... Why the shock ? The specs clearly state base64 is not intended for "encryption" ... And the facts (IMHO) is that Basic Authentication is no more or less secure then entering user & password in form fields. What shocks *me* is that the intent of base64 is stated to allow more characters then HTTP headers allow but then due to the lack of encoding/charset specification allows precious few. A lot of work for almost nothing. A simple insertion of the text "UTF8 encoded prior to base64" would have nailed it. -David ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: Petite Abeille [mailto:petite.abeille@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:31 PM To: xml-dev Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication On Jan 29, 2012, at 11:15 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > Holy s*** you're right. Hyperventilating? :P Take a deep breath and go back on reading about this interesting topic: http://iang.org/ssl/wytm.html To bring this back closer to home... how does one represent a form feed in XML 1.0?!?!? :D _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324326.html >how does one represent a form feed in XML 1.0? <formFeed/> Michael Kay Saxonica _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324325.html On Jan 29, 2012, at 11:15 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > Holy s*** you're right. Hyperventilating? :P Take a deep breath and go back on reading about this interesting topic: http://iang.org/ssl/wytm.html To bring this back closer to home... how does one represent a form feed in XML 1.0?!?!? :D _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324324.html It's actually pretty useful as an insecure *identification* mechanism. EG if you're operating inside a firewall and just want to give people a mechanism to say who they are, allowing for the fact someone might impersonate someone else, etc. Not every authentication mechanism has to be secure, just like not every door has to be locked - I mean do you lock your bathroom door? Closing it is enough; people knock and identify themselves. But yes, it's not good for public-facing auth, etc, and probably people (like you!) who don't know what it is have used it as if it were secure, so for that reason I agree with you, it's not the sort of standard that should be promulgated. -Mike On 1/29/2012 5:15 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > Holy s*** you're right. Just used wireshark on some HTTP exchanges. > All this talk about online security and they effectively allow Base64 > as an 'encryption' algorithm! People should go to jail for that! > Still think it's a bad, bad, bad idea. SIP has deprecated it and > Twitter has disabled it. As I said, I'm pretty sure the IETF wouldn't > accept something similar to it these days. > > Pete Cordell > Codalogic Ltd > Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML > data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. > Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com > for more info > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cordell" > <petexmldev@codalogic.com> > To: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" > <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:35 PM > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > > >> Convenient doesn't mean good though. I think it _can_ be used over >> TLS, but since HTTP needs to support other schemes for non-TLS I >> can't see the point. I don't think it would accepted if it was >> introduced today. >> >> Pete Cordell >> Codalogic Ltd >> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML >> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. >> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com >> for more info >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petite Abeille" >> <petite.abeille@gmail.com> >> To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication >> >> >> >> On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: >> >>> My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure >> >> Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used >> over TLS if you care about this kind of things. >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org >> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org >> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org >> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org >> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >> > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324323.html Holy s*** you're right. Just used wireshark on some HTTP exchanges. All this talk about online security and they effectively allow Base64 as an 'encryption' algorithm! People should go to jail for that! Still think it's a bad, bad, bad idea. SIP has deprecated it and Twitter has disabled it. As I said, I'm pretty sure the IETF wouldn't accept something similar to it these days. Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cordell" <petexmldev@codalogic.com> To: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com>; "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > Convenient doesn't mean good though. I think it _can_ be used over TLS, > but since HTTP needs to support other schemes for non-TLS I can't see the > point. I don't think it would accepted if it was introduced today. > > Pete Cordell > Codalogic Ltd > Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML > data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. > Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com > for more info > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com> > To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > > > > On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > >> My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure > > Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used over TLS > if you care about this kind of things. > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324322.html Convenient doesn't mean good though. I think it _can_ be used over TLS, but since HTTP needs to support other schemes for non-TLS I can't see the point. I don't think it would accepted if it was introduced today. Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petite Abeille" <petite.abeille@gmail.com> To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used over TLS if you care about this kind of things. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324319.html On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Pete Cordell wrote: > My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure Basic is convenient, universally supported, and meant to be used over TLS if you care about this kind of things. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324318.html My understanding is that Basic is essentially considered insecure. I'd be surprised if modern browsers support it because it opens the way to a man-in-the-middle downgrade attack. Hence I guess it's remained undefined for so long because even if it was fixed, nobody should use it. I would be surprised if the draft mentioned below got anywhere in the IETF. HTH, Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes. Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com for more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lee" <dlee@calldei.com> To: <xml-dev@lists.xml.org> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 7:53 PM Subject: [xml-dev] RE: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > More study and I lucked on a spec > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reschke-basicauth-enc-00.html > > > > Seems a known and open problem (how long has this been in the wild ? How > did > it ever work ?) > > So follow-on question ... > > > > Does anyone know if this spec or anything like it has been adopted ? > > Or do we just all assume the world is "USASCII" as usual ? > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > David A. Lee > > dlee@calldei.com > > http://www.xmlsh.org > > > > From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 2:43 PM > To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org > Subject: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication > > > > I know this is not an "xml" question but maybe someone on this list knows > or > can point me to the right direction ? > > > > Is there a defined character set for the strings used in user/password in > HTTP Basic Authentication ? > I can't find any reference in the W3C specs > > > > http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/1.0/spec.html#BasicAA > > > > It says its "Base64" encoded but that only makes sense on a byte array not > a > string. > > So what encoding/charset is the string assumed to be ? > I found some apache software that lets you specify this ... but is there > any > 'standard' ? > > > > Example: if someone uses a password like "飯田西" > > > What charset should be used to pass that to the base64 encoding ? > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > David A. Lee > > dlee@calldei.com > > http://www.xmlsh.org > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324317.html On Jan 29, 2012, at 8:43 PM, David Lee wrote: > Is there a defined character set for the strings used in user/password in > HTTP Basic Authentication ? Sadly, no :/ http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reschke-basicauth-enc-00.html _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324316.html More study and I lucked on a spec http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reschke-basicauth-enc-00.html Seems a known and open problem (how long has this been in the wild ? How did it ever work ?) So follow-on question ... Does anyone know if this spec or anything like it has been adopted ? Or do we just all assume the world is "USASCII" as usual ? ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 2:43 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Encoding charset of HTTP Basic Authentication I know this is not an "xml" question but maybe someone on this list knows or can point me to the right direction ? Is there a defined character set for the strings used in user/password in HTTP Basic Authentication ? I can't find any reference in the W3C specs http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/1.0/spec.html#BasicAA It says its "Base64" encoded but that only makes sense on a byte array not a string. So what encoding/charset is the string assumed to be ? I found some apache software that lets you specify this ... but is there any 'standard' ? Example: if someone uses a password like "$BHSED@>(B" What charset should be used to pass that to the base64 encoding ? ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324315.html I know this is not an "xml" question but maybe someone on this list knows or can point me to the right direction ? Is there a defined character set for the strings used in user/password in HTTP Basic Authentication ? I can't find any reference in the W3C specs http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/1.0/spec.html#BasicAA It says its "Base64" encoded but that only makes sense on a byte array not a string. So what encoding/charset is the string assumed to be ? I found some apache software that lets you specify this ... but is there any 'standard' ? Example: if someone uses a password like "$BHSED@>(B" What charset should be used to pass that to the base64 encoding ? ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee <mailto:dlee@calldei.com> dlee@calldei.com <http://www.xmlsh.org> http://www.xmlsh.org]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324314.html On Sat, 2012-01-28 at 10:11 +0000, Markus Braun wrote: > Hi , > okay sorry... it was too late.. > maybe you have heared about the siri proxy plugins? > They are all written in ruby. OK, so you are writing a program in Ruby, using ruby on rails, yes? > I have also find out the right URL for the request: > http://mobile.bahn.de/bin/mobil/bhftafel.exe/dox?input=Richard-Strauss-Stra%DFe%2C+M%FCnchen%23625127&date=27.01.12&time=20%3A41&productsFilter=1111111111000000&REQTrain_name=&maxJourneys=10&start=Suchen&boardType=Abfahrt&ao=yes > > but at the moment dont know what the code behind the city is.... I do not know what you mean by "the code behind the city"; it appears that that URI returns a page for Munich (Müenchen). > and now i like to make a request over the script where i give the > input from location from now, which trains are drive. "a request over the script" I _think_ you are saying you want to write a program in the Ruby language that will use geolocation information from a mobile phone in some way, and you are asking how to access that. If so, this is (I think) either about HTTP headers or the geolocation API, and nothing to do with XML. Your question is still very vague: by "the script" you mean the program you are writing in ruby that runs on a mobile phone? on a Web server? where? by "where i give the input" do you mean that you are using the program and enter input with a keyboard? or that the user enters input and you as a programmer must have previously set up the program to handle that input? Or just that you are not sure how to write code to put the name of the city into the URL? Where *exactly* does XML come into play? -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324309.html Hi , okay sorry... it was too late.. maybe you have heared about the siri proxy plugins? They are all written in ruby. https://github.com/muhkuh0815/siriproxy-Eyelp/blob/master/lib/siriproxy-eyelp.rb I have also find out the right URL for the request: http://mobile.bahn.de/bin/mobil/bhftafel.exe/dox?input=Richard-Strauss-Stra%DFe%2C+M%FCnchen%23625127&date=27.01.12&time=20%3A41&productsFilter=1111111111000000&REQTrain_name=&maxJourneys=10&start=Suchen&boardType=Abfahrt&ao=yes but at the moment dont know what the code behind the city is.... and now i like to make a request over the script where i give the input from location from now, which trains are drive. I hope its now more clearly and you know what i mean :) Thank you marcus > From: liam@w3.org > To: charmed21muc@hotmail.com > CC: xml-dev@lists.xml.org > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:31:12 -0500 > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] XML Parse > > On Fri, 2012-01-27 at 23:07 +0000, Markus Braun wrote: > > Hello, > > who can help me to parse a xml file e.g. > > > > http://www.spiegel.de/schlagzeilen/tops/index.rss > > Did you do _any_ research before asking here? > > Parse in what programming language? C? Perl? Python? Lua? > > What sort of output do you expect? > > There are many people who can help you if you ask a more specific > question. For example, > > "I'm using Microfocus COBOL 3.12 on a Xenix 386 system under ISC > Interactive Unix 5.2 release 3, and I need to process the RSS file here > to extract the lowest price for dental floss and add the information to > an ISAM database. I am stuck because the file is in UTF-8 and my COBOL > parser only handles Windows codepages; can someone suggest another > parser, or would it be better to convert the file?" > > Liam > > -- > Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ > Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324306.html On Fri, 2012-01-27 at 23:07 +0000, Markus Braun wrote: > Hello, > who can help me to parse a xml file e.g. > > http://www.spiegel.de/schlagzeilen/tops/index.rss Did you do _any_ research before asking here? Parse in what programming language? C? Perl? Python? Lua? What sort of output do you expect? There are many people who can help you if you ask a more specific question. For example, "I'm using Microfocus COBOL 3.12 on a Xenix 386 system under ISC Interactive Unix 5.2 release 3, and I need to process the RSS file here to extract the lowest price for dental floss and add the information to an ISAM database. I am stuck because the file is in UTF-8 and my COBOL parser only handles Windows codepages; can someone suggest another parser, or would it be better to convert the file?" Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324305.html Hello, who can help me to parse a xml file e.g. http://www.spiegel.de/schlagzeilen/tops/index.rss thank you marcus]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324304.html You can find more about derivation in RNG here: http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2006/07/06/2814_relax_ng_and_w3c_xml_schema_compared_continued/ Greetings, Radu Cernuta 2012/1/27, David Lee <dlee@calldei.com>: > Awesome it works ! Thank you ! > ( and when converting to XSD it made a proper complexType and created > elements of that type. ) > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > David A. Lee > dlee@calldei.com > http://www.xmlsh.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] On Behalf Of John Cowan > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:56 AM > To: David Lee > Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Abstract types in RNG ? > > > David Lee scripsit: > >> I'm trying to learn RNG (compact) and I'm stumped on this one. In XSD >> I can do this but cant figure it out in RNG ... is it possible ? > > The key to solving this sort of problem with RNG is to let go of the > idea that you can only name element patterns. In fact, you can name > any kind of pattern: a sequence of two elements, a choice between three > attributes, a choice between an element and a sequence of two attributes, > all these can have names. What you need here is to name a sequence, > and you do that like this: > >> Address = >> element name { xs:string }, >> element address1 { xs:string} , >> ... > > Note that there are no braces, which are part of the syntax of an > element pattern. > >> ShippingAddress = element shipAddress { Address } >> >> BillingAddress = element billAddress { Address } >> >> >> The only difference between shipAddress and billAddress would be the > element >> name. > > Just so, since th element patterns have the same named content model. > >> Is this possible in RNG ? I know I can just duplicate the definitions but >> that feels so bad ! > > It certainly would be. > > -- > Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan > Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker cowan@ccil.org > saying "No information items inside". http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > --Eve Maler > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324303.html Dear members, We are glad to announce a release of EditiX XML Editor 2012. http://www.editix.com News : * General - Application descriptor can be edited for changing Menus / Toolbars / Popups... - Plugin API for controlling editing / adding new features to EditiX - Search field while editing by elements/attributes or xpath expressions - XSLT/XSLFO/XQuery panel for reusing transformation scenarios - Spell checker (Google Service usage) working with 11 languages - Improved DTD, W3C Schema, RelaxNG Inference - Custom Node Coloration from the XML tree Popup - Engine Updates for inner XML libraries * Filter - Import / Export an XML grid using a CSV file format - Filter activation is saved for next editor usage * XSLT Editor - A W3C Schema can be bounded to the XSLT document for output content assistant * XML DataBases - Improve eXist connection test * Bugs fixed - Recent files saves now all user parameters ( XSLT Parameters... ) - Select node from the tree popup didn't work - Error icon overrided the tab icon - Locked/Unlocked state editor refresh fixed for the toolbar usage - XML Formatting could bug with tags in comment inside the document header - XML Formatting could bug with &quot;, &apos; entities in text - Location by line fixed - Focus lost when checking a document Best regards, The EditiX XML Editor Team http://www.editix.com _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324302.html Awesome it works ! Thank you ! ( and when converting to XSD it made a proper complexType and created elements of that type. ) ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] On Behalf Of John Cowan Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:56 AM To: David Lee Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Abstract types in RNG ? David Lee scripsit: > I'm trying to learn RNG (compact) and I'm stumped on this one. In XSD > I can do this but cant figure it out in RNG ... is it possible ? The key to solving this sort of problem with RNG is to let go of the idea that you can only name element patterns. In fact, you can name any kind of pattern: a sequence of two elements, a choice between three attributes, a choice between an element and a sequence of two attributes, all these can have names. What you need here is to name a sequence, and you do that like this: > Address = > element name { xs:string }, > element address1 { xs:string} , > ... Note that there are no braces, which are part of the syntax of an element pattern. > ShippingAddress = element shipAddress { Address } > > BillingAddress = element billAddress { Address } > > > The only difference between shipAddress and billAddress would be the element > name. Just so, since th element patterns have the same named content model. > Is this possible in RNG ? I know I can just duplicate the definitions but > that feels so bad ! It certainly would be. -- Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker cowan@ccil.org saying "No information items inside". http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Eve Maler _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324301.html David Lee scripsit: > I'm trying to learn RNG (compact) and I'm stumped on this one. In XSD > I can do this but cant figure it out in RNG ... is it possible ? The key to solving this sort of problem with RNG is to let go of the idea that you can only name element patterns. In fact, you can name any kind of pattern: a sequence of two elements, a choice between three attributes, a choice between an element and a sequence of two attributes, all these can have names. What you need here is to name a sequence, and you do that like this: > Address = > element name { xs:string }, > element address1 { xs:string} , > ... Note that there are no braces, which are part of the syntax of an element pattern. > ShippingAddress = element shipAddress { Address } > > BillingAddress = element billAddress { Address } > > > The only difference between shipAddress and billAddress would be the element > name. Just so, since th element patterns have the same named content model. > Is this possible in RNG ? I know I can just duplicate the definitions but > that feels so bad ! It certainly would be. -- Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker cowan@ccil.org saying "No information items inside". http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Eve Maler _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324297.html I'm trying to learn RNG (compact) and I'm stumped on this one. In XSD I can do this but cant figure it out in RNG ... is it possible ? I'd like 2 concrete types to derive from the same base type and only differ by element name. Example Address = element [What here ?] { element name { xs:string }, element address1 { xs:string} , ... } ShippingAddress = element shipAddress [ derived from Address ?] BillingAddress = element billAddress [ derived from Address ?] The only difference between shipAddress and billAddress would be the element name. Is this possible in RNG ? I know I can just duplicate the definitions but that feels so bad ! -David ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee <mailto:dlee@calldei.com> dlee@calldei.com <http://www.xmlsh.org> http://www.xmlsh.org]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324296.html Some others of note: "...the WHOLE POINT of XML is to live at the nexus of human and machine systems." -- Mike Champion "Reductionism may be wonderful for computers, but it's not very useful for the rest of us. At least in theory, XML is supposed to provide a middle ground between human and machine-readable." -- Simon St. Laurent "XML is for developers. XML is for authors. XML is for anyone that needs to add type and structure to information." -- Aaron Skonnard And for fun: "What was the design objective for this program? If it was to be as unreadable as possible and as slow as possible at the same time, while still failing to produce correct results, then I think it has probably been achieved." -- Michael Kay -----Original Message----- From: Costello, Roger L. [mailto:costello@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:49 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: [xml-dev] I nominate these xml-dev postings as two of the all-time great postings Hi Folks, I nominate the below xml-dev postings as two of the all-time great postings. /Roger --------------------- Henry Thompson --------------------- "Why is text marked up" ? To make explicit for mechanical processing what is implicit-but-evident in the original. ----------------------------------- Michael Sperberg-McQueen ----------------------------------- One of the great themes of computer science over the last sixty years has been the long-running campaign to move more and more things out of the "must be checked by eyeball" / semantics area, and into the "can readily be checked by machine" / syntax area. Henry Thompson's post: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201201/msg00078.html Michael Sperberg-McQueen's post: http://www.oxygenxml.com/archives/xml-dev/200902/msg00158.html _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324295.html Hi Folks, I nominate the below xml-dev postings as two of the all-time great postings. /Roger --------------------- Henry Thompson --------------------- "Why is text marked up" ? To make explicit for mechanical processing what is implicit-but-evident in the original. ----------------------------------- Michael Sperberg-McQueen ----------------------------------- One of the great themes of computer science over the last sixty years has been the long-running campaign to move more and more things out of the "must be checked by eyeball" / semantics area, and into the "can readily be checked by machine" / syntax area. Henry Thompson's post: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201201/msg00078.html Michael Sperberg-McQueen's post: http://www.oxygenxml.com/archives/xml-dev/200902/msg00158.html _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324294.html Dear Kurt, is there a way to access your article still? The URL below doesn't work. I'd be happy to have a look at it -- we haven't decided yet whether to use XQIB and I'm looking for some data, praise, and critique. Many thanks in advance, Piotr On 17/01/11 06:32, Kurt Cagle wrote: > An article I wrote covering the basics of the new xqib-js > engine: http://xmltoday.org/2011/01/xquery-in-the-browser-via-javascript/ > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324293.html >Humans are much harder to please. <otherProgrammers /> <!-- non mortal skills --> I am blithe about the fact that the dumdums let us reorder their entropy. HT does get it. len _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324289.html On 24 January 2012 09:42, davep <davep@dpawson.co.uk> wrote: > On 01/19/2012 04:58 PM, Henry S. Thompson wrote: >> >> David Lee writes: >> >>> "Why is text marked up" ? >> >> To make explicit for mechanical processing what is >> implicit-but-evident in the original. >> >> ht > > > s/mechanical/.../  something better? > computer? > Re: "Good tagging is done in a way that extracting the anotations and from the anotated data is reliable". But that is more a attribute of good tagging, and not just tagging. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324284.html On 01/19/2012 04:58 PM, Henry S. Thompson wrote: > David Lee writes: > >> "Why is text marked up" ? > To make explicit for mechanical processing what is > implicit-but-evident in the original. > > ht s/mechanical/.../ something better? computer? regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. http://www.dpawson.co.uk _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324283.html As I read the many fascinating responses to Roger's original query, it seems to me that they often conflate two largely distinct meanings for the term "markup." Markup in the editorial, proofreader, or documentalist sense, it seems to me, isn't the same thing as XML markup. A scholar or editor adding marks to text (handwritten or otherwise) is working at one abstract layer (maybe more than one, but just one for the sake of this argument), while a technician taking the results and adding XML markup is working at a different layer. Henry Thompson got it exactly right, I think, when he said that the purpose of markup (XML markup, I think) is "To make explicit for mechanical processing what is implicit-but-evident in the original." Editors and scholars, you could argue, do something very similar, but their audience is other humans, not machines. Humans are much harder to please. (I'm tempted to add "evident to persons" in Thompson's definition, but have so far resisted.) As Jeremy Griffith pointed out, when automated typesetting was first used, the markup terminology was all about layout and typesetting, and was usually proprietary to the hardware. Early dedicated word processors were similar, such as the one I used here as late as 1989. The right kind of scholar might be able to make a case that the advent of general-purpose computers, especially personal computers, enabled general-purpose markup languages and gave a new dimension to editorial or scholarly markup. The advancing pace of technological change merits markup sufficiently abstracted from the hardware to easily adapt to unintended uses. Personal computers certainly enabled the Internet, pushing HTML way beyond its original purpose and creating the demand for XML. The very possibility of creating one's own markup language was, I'm guessing, more than a little exhilarating. When the Government Printing Office switched from hot-lead typesetting to photocomposition, US patents were encoded using a hardware-specific typesetting markup that we called Blue Book (sorry, I've forgotten what GPO called it, and I never did know what hardware they used). That was before my time, but from about 1970 through 2000, we converted Blue Book to Green Book, which was our proto-semantic markup (Dialog-esque tags in 80-column punched-card images) intended for populating search systems. In 2001, we moved to full semantic (SGML) markup (WIPO Standard ST.32), which was then converted to photocomposition markup for printed patents. Since 2004, we've been using XML and a standardized vocabulary (WIPO standard ST.36 and soon ST.96). Page images (replacing printing) are created from PostScript files (from the XML using proprietary technology) published in PDF wrappers. Patent examiners annotate what applicants submit. These annotations, similar to the scholarly markup that some of you have discussed, are private to the examiner, even after the contents of a file wrapper are made public. As we convert file content to text, we have to capture these annotations, preserve their context including their exact location or reference point in the content, and present them to the examiner on demand, but not to the general public or even privileged viewers of the file wrapper. It's an interesting challenge for the XML, probably already solved for other businesses with similar requirements. I'd welcome any pointers to commercial solutions. Bruce B Cox USPTO/OCIO/AED/SAED 571-272-9004 -----Original Message----- From: Rand McRanderson [mailto:therandshow@gmail.com] Sent: 2012 January 20, Friday 14:04 To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Text Markup Part II I think a lot of it comes down to a faster-moving technology cycle, but also a less stable technology work environment. More companies want to incorporate new technologies faster, and many companies want be able to switch vendors easily and get new engineers up to speed faster. Let me back up one step. I think intuitively we divide documents into chunks and sections and pieces and learn to identify where important parts are. In addition, in most big companies, even free text ends up being according to a standard which writes out how things should be laid out so that these pieces are in one place and those pieces are in another. However, the intuitive understanding of free text, or even understanding free text according to a company writing standard, is usually tribal knowledge. Moreover, it is hard to move between computer systems. This doesn't matter when you have a very stable work environment where people have been working together for years and vendors have figured out how to process free text and integrate it into their systems. But the working environment for engineers is not as stable as it used to be, partly because technology moves faster nowadays, but also because tech companies are not as stable as they used to be. This has meant lots of training of new engineers, or even worse when new project managers or new vendors come in, retraining of the old staff. Markup doesn't solve these problems, but it makes them easier by allowing machine translation of information, easier standardization of document structure, and organized rules to replace the intuitive understanding of where important information is. Plus there's fashion, once a technology trend gets started it takes on a life of its own, irrespective of your needs. Sincerely, John Thomas On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Michael Hopwood <michael@editeur.org> wrote: >>>> What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between  what appears to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only the later. > > Actually, and for a very long time before it became "cool" ;) to talk about this, it's really only been the latter, except that the "markup" for the rest of the document is implicit. Adding a "root" tag for the whole document simply formalises and makes machine-readable (although you could have done this a variety of other ways, like filename extensions) what "documentalists" of all kinds have been doing for a very long time; (more or less formally) identifying integral units of documentation. > > A MARC21 serialisation has message headers to separate different catalogue records in the stream - those are short documents, generally, although they can potentially get very long. And every element, as well as the whole thing, is marked up. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to > support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the > archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: > http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php >]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324280.html On Sun, 2012-01-22 at 11:21 +0000, David Carlisle wrote: > On 21/01/2012 01:12, Liam R E Quin wrote: > > The XML Print and Page Layout Working Group h > > oh I missed that, have they/you finally spilt off from the XSL(T) WG? Yes. We renamed the XSL Working Group to the XSLT Working group; we took the XSL-FO subgroup and made it into a full Working Group, the XML Print and Page Layout Working Group. The goal was to get clearer visibiliy & accountability to the people who pay our bills, and also to get a more focussed group. I can't say it was an unmitigated success, since we have very few participants :-( Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324270.html On 21/01/2012 01:12, Liam R E Quin wrote: > The XML Print and Page Layout Working Group h oh I missed that, have they/you finally spilt off from the XSL(T) WG? David _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324267.html On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 14:17 -0500, Rand McRanderson wrote: > is there > a format for advanced test case features like stubbing functions, > creating data dictionaries, etc. I don't know of a standard in this area, but I'd be interested if you found one! At W3C we certainly have Working Groups creating tens of thousands of test cases for their specifications, and although for most formats that's not the same as software unit tests, there are some commonalities. I can't speak for other standards bodies, since I work for W3C :-) We've also started Community Groups, which anyone can start, and which offer a zero-dollar way to build a community and explore making a standard. I wouldn't really advise doing the work of making a standard until you find several potential implementors whose users will want to interchange data. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324255.html On 01/20/2012 07:17 PM, Rand McRanderson wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I work in the test software industry (or at least that's one way to > describe my work), and I was curious if there was a good standard > interchange format (preferable-ly xml, but not necessarily) for test > cases. Software for testing software, or software for testing hardware? If the latter, I've just been googling for IEEE ATLAS 716 and seeking an XML version. http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/scc20/td/STD%20Standard.htm is around that area. http://www.w3.org/QA/WG/2003/10/tcdl-20031012 is another, and http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php is more likely closer to what you describe, if for software. HTH regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. http://www.dpawson.co.uk _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324254.html Not to forget nroff/troff then RTF. ( then postscript, word etc etc ... ) But as we go back that far its mostly markup primarily concerned with typesetting not semantics. Somewhere along the line (as far as I can tell). Semantic markup and typesetting/publishing markup started to converge. Sent from my iPad (excuse the terseness) David A Lee dlee@calldei.com On Jan 20, 2012, at 9:00 PM, Liam R E Quin <liam@w3.org> wrote: > > On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 20:16 +0000, Peter Flynn wrote: >> On 20/01/12 12:02, David Lee wrote: >> [...] >>> * Was there a slow transition of adding markup then some kind of "Ah Ha!" >>> moment where people realized they needed/should wrap the whole thing in a >>> tag ? >> >> I don't think there was a specific road-to-Damascus moment, but the >> development of Script--GML--SGML and the start-tag...end-tag very >> roughly paralleled the development of TeX (grouping) and LaTeX with its >> \begin...\end markers. > > LaTeX was of course based on the earlier Scribe formatter, which used > @begin...@end. > > Liam > > -- > Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ > Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324251.html On Fri, 2012-01-20 at 20:16 +0000, Peter Flynn wrote: > On 20/01/12 12:02, David Lee wrote: > [...] > > * Was there a slow transition of adding markup then some kind of "Ah Ha!" > > moment where people realized they needed/should wrap the whole thing in a > > tag ? > > I don't think there was a specific road-to-Damascus moment, but the > development of Script--GML--SGML and the start-tag...end-tag very > roughly paralleled the development of TeX (grouping) and LaTeX with its > \begin...\end markers. LaTeX was of course based on the earlier Scribe formatter, which used @begin...@end. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324250.html [1] The XML Schema Working Group's XSD 1.1 (both parts) is now a W3C Candidate Recommendation. This means that the W3C Advisory Committee (one vote per Member organization) gets to review the document; if that goes OK, XSD 1.1 will be a Recommendation in March or April. If you _are_ a W3C Advisory Committee Representative, please do fill in your review as soon as possible! Thank you! :-) [2] The XML Print and Page Layout Working Group has published an updated Working Draft of XSL-FO 2.0; this is still very much a work in progress, and there's an XSL-FO meetup planned for the day before XML Prague where you can come and tell us where to... er, I mean, how much you need specific functionality :) [3] For completeness, I'll mention you can find these, along with other Working Drafts (including XQuery 3 and XPath 3 now in Last Call for comments) on the W3C Technical Reports page at http://www.w3.org/TR/ or, sorted by publication date, http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-date-all Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324247.html On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:02:36 -0500, "David Lee" <dlee@calldei.com> wrote: >* Was there a natural evolution from tagging little bits of text to the >point where it was felt that all of it should be tagged ? Or perhaps there >were cross-purposes from different camps ? Yes, there was. The first markup scheme I worked with was for typesetting using TTS encoding (6 bit), on Mergenthaler typesetters like the 202 in 1970. The medium was 6-level punched paper tape. With only 64 characters, you had 26 letters, 10 digits, a small assortment of symbols (period, comma, etc.), and a few codes that changed state: shift, unshift, supershift. And for Merg, there was one escape code, bell, that introduced control sequences. So what you had was text with control sequences interspersed, such as font changes, size changes, column width, left and right indents, and alignment. There were no start/end tags; you remained in the new state until you changed it explicitly. So you had to start your tapes with a set of defaults, so your job didn't get the properties of whatever had been run just before it. I was familiar with this because I wrote the first text editor program that ran on micros that produced the coding needed for the 202 (and later, the L300). Until then, you used minicomputer front-end systems, which were quite pricey. ;-) Early word-processor encoding was similar. IIRC, the concept of matching start/end tags arrived with SGML... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. <jeremy@omsys.com> http://www.omsys.com/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324246.html < lots of text omitted> >>> A) "Marking up bits of text where needed" By this I am referring to an extension from manual markup. Like say a term paper where the teacher has circled a few words and "X"'d out another and written on the top "Good Job". Or a photocopy of a manuscript or actual book with margin notes. Similarly I am *imagining* that Text markup may have started with a similar ancestry. That the whole document wasn't taken to be say an "XML Syntax for a Document" but rather an existing document with a few tags thrown in to add annotation. ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324245.html Peter Flynn scripsit: > Thank you for reminding me -- a good example. I don't remember (and now > cannot find, as most of the links there have broken over time) details > of how LMNL announces its presence: is this assumed to be in the > filetype, or is there a marker somewhere? There is a LMNL declaration analogous to the XML declaration: both are optional. In-band document type identification can never be completely reliable, as it may be accidentally spoofed by something else (just look at all the comments in your local copy of /etc/magic). Out-of-band identification is reliable if present, but may easily get lost: when an HTTP resource is saved on the local file system, the Content-Type: header is almost always discarded. > I was taking (A) to mean marking up a fragment inside a document > *without* heralding the fact. I really don't see a use case for that, > apart from providing for serendipitous discovery. Well, what comes to mind is the recognition of XLinks in arbitrary XML documents based on the xlink namespace. There is no identification tag saying "This document has XLinks"; you do have to discover it by serendipity or exhaustive search. (The presence of the namespace declaration, though necessary, is not sufficient.) -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org There are books that are at once excellent and boring. Those that at once leap to the mind are Thoreau's Walden, Emerson's Essays, George Eliot's Adam Bede, and Landor's Dialogues. --Somerset Maugham _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324244.html On 20/01/12 20:28, John Cowan wrote: > Peter Flynn scripsit: > >>> A) "Marking up bits of text where needed" >>> And >>> B) "A full text markup vocabulary for encoding an entire document" >> >> I'm finding it hard to see a use case for (A) at all. I'm not aware of >> it ever being done. > > In LMNL, the tags express not containment but ranges, which may or may > not overlap. There is no requirement to tag the whole-document range. > Indeed, as soon as you have escaped the LMNL markup start characters > [ and {, any plain-text document becomes well-formed LMNL. Thank you for reminding me -- a good example. I don't remember (and now cannot find, as most of the links there have broken over time) details of how LMNL announces its presence: is this assumed to be in the filetype, or is there a marker somewhere? Other than the simple presence of the markup characters themselves, which could arbitrarily occur in any type of document. I was taking (A) to mean marking up a fragment inside a document *without* heralding the fact. I really don't see a use case for that, apart from providing for serendipitous discovery. ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324243.html Peter Flynn scripsit: >> A) "Marking up bits of text where needed" >> And >> B) "A full text markup vocabulary for encoding an entire document" > > I'm finding it hard to see a use case for (A) at all. I'm not aware of > it ever being done. In LMNL, the tags express not containment but ranges, which may or may not overlap. There is no requirement to tag the whole-document range. Indeed, as soon as you have escaped the LMNL markup start characters [ and {, any plain-text document becomes well-formed LMNL. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Original line from The Warrior's Apprentice by Lois McMaster Bujold: "Only on Barrayar would pulling a loaded needler start a stampede toward one." English-to-Russian-to-English mangling thereof: "Only on Barrayar you risk to lose support instead of finding it when you threat with the charged weapon." _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324241.html Rand McRanderson scripsit: > I realize in a way standardization undermines my company (if customers > can interchange, they can interchange out of our format), but I think > it makes sense in terms of making life easier for doing better tests > faster and creating safer code (my company works with safety-critical > software, so safe code in our cases is often literally a matter of > life or death). Absolutely sound reasoning. Competition by lock-in is a short-term strategy only. > While I speak only as an individual, I can say that if people can > point me to a good standard or a vendor-neutral standards body for > this sort of thing, I would push for my company to offer some degree > of compliance with that. I can't speak to any pre-existing standards in this field, but OASIS <http://oasis-open.org> makes it very easy to create IT standards and has done a lot of markup standards in the past. It only takes three OASIS members to start a working group. It is also very cheap for a corporate membership: $8000 (less if you have less than 500 employees). -- A witness cannot give evidence of his John Cowan age unless he can remember being born. cowan@ccil.org --Judge Blagden http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324240.html On 20/01/12 12:02, David Lee wrote: [...] > * Was there a slow transition of adding markup then some kind of "Ah Ha!" > moment where people realized they needed/should wrap the whole thing in a > tag ? I don't think there was a specific road-to-Damascus moment, but the development of Script--GML--SGML and the start-tag...end-tag very roughly paralleled the development of TeX (grouping) and LaTeX with its \begin...\end markers. But even roff/Runoff had a rudimentary turn-on...turn-off mechanism. Wrapping the whole thing is largely an [S]GML and LaTeX thang: <!doctype foo system "bar.dtd"> <foo>...</foo> and \documentstyle{bar} \begin{document}...\end{document} Even COCOA markup assumes the whole document is being treated the same way. > * Was there a legacy/historic (SGML?) reason why documents needed to be > tagged from the very beginning in order to parse tags at all ? (A kind of > inline file header/type/magic number ?) Yes: if you want to know what's coming up, you need (a) a roadmap (DTD), and some signposts (markup). Without that, you might as well point the car at the sun and drive until you find a nice place for a picnic. Exploration by serendipity is fun, but it ain't going to get you a consistent document, and don't forget most of these developments were driven by the need to print and publish, where consistency is a requirement. > * Was there a natural evolution from tagging little bits of text to the > point where it was felt that all of it should be tagged ? Or perhaps there > were cross-purposes from different camps ? I don't think there was an evolution (natural or unnatural) from fragments to whole documents. If you're going to do some of it, you may as well do all of it and be consistent. All the early writers on markup make the assumption that the document is being treated as a whole. > What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between what appears > to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only > the later. > > A) "Marking up bits of text where needed" > And > B) "A full text markup vocabulary for encoding an entire document" I'm finding it hard to see a use case for (A) at all. I'm not aware of it ever being done. > My 'gut feeling' on this, not having been privy to the entire history ... is > that it was an artifact of processing. > That (it was felt that) processors simply needed to detect the *possibility > of markup* within text at the start of a document I'm not sure that has ever been the case, but I would be extremely interested if you have an instance of it. > and thats how we ended up > wrapping the whole thing in a root element , thus crossing the threshold > from "A document with marked up text" to "A Markup formatted/schema based > document for encoding text". Was there ever any such threshhold? I was just a student in the days of roff/Runoff, and the only distinction given to those files was that the filename ended in an extension that signified the processing expected (eg .rno), so in a sense the presence of markup in the text was unheralded per se in the text itself, except that you tended to start with all the settings, so /etc/magic would tell you that ^\.[a-z] meant it was a Runoff document, the same way that ^\\doc told you it was LaTeX and ^\<\! told you it was SGML. ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324239.html Hi everyone, I work in the test software industry (or at least that's one way to describe my work), and I was curious if there was a good standard interchange format (preferable-ly xml, but not necessarily) for test cases. A common need among my customers is to import test cases from an old format to a new one. I realize that expected inputs and expected outputs can be expressed in a csv (although often not neatly, especially once you start suspending some of the variables, so I wouldn't mind a format that just covered that use case), but is there a format for advanced test case features like stubbing functions, creating data dictionaries, etc. My company has an internal format which is pretty nicely structured, but it is optimized for our environment and designed to incorporate the most amount of data possible (so that customers can extract/generate their information). The use case here is interchange (as well as development of standardized utilities). I realize in a way standardization undermines my company (if customers can interchange, they can interchange out of our format), but I think it makes sense in terms of making life easier for doing better tests faster and creating safer code (my company works with safety-critical software, so safe code in our cases is often literally a matter of life or death). While I speak only as an individual, I can say that if people can point me to a good standard or a vendor-neutral standards body for this sort of thing, I would push for my company to offer some degree of compliance with that. Sincerely, John Thomas _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324238.html I think a lot of it comes down to a faster-moving technology cycle, but also a less stable technology work environment. More companies want to incorporate new technologies faster, and many companies want be able to switch vendors easily and get new engineers up to speed faster. Let me back up one step. I think intuitively we divide documents into chunks and sections and pieces and learn to identify where important parts are. In addition, in most big companies, even free text ends up being according to a standard which writes out how things should be laid out so that these pieces are in one place and those pieces are in another. However, the intuitive understanding of free text, or even understanding free text according to a company writing standard, is usually tribal knowledge. Moreover, it is hard to move between computer systems. This doesn't matter when you have a very stable work environment where people have been working together for years and vendors have figured out how to process free text and integrate it into their systems. But the working environment for engineers is not as stable as it used to be, partly because technology moves faster nowadays, but also because tech companies are not as stable as they used to be. This has meant lots of training of new engineers, or even worse when new project managers or new vendors come in, retraining of the old staff. Markup doesn't solve these problems, but it makes them easier by allowing machine translation of information, easier standardization of document structure, and organized rules to replace the intuitive understanding of where important information is. Plus there's fashion, once a technology trend gets started it takes on a life of its own, irrespective of your needs. Sincerely, John Thomas On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Michael Hopwood <michael@editeur.org> wrote: >>>> What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between  what appears to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only the later. > > Actually, and for a very long time before it became "cool" ;) to talk about this, it's really only been the latter, except that the "markup" for the rest of the document is implicit. Adding a "root" tag for the whole document simply formalises and makes machine-readable (although you could have done this a variety of other ways, like filename extensions) what "documentalists" of all kinds have been doing for a very long time; (more or less formally) identifying integral units of documentation. > > A MARC21 serialisation has message headers to separate different catalogue records in the stream - those are short documents, generally, although they can potentially get very long. And every element, as well as the whole thing, is marked up. > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324237.html Victor Porton scripsit: > New draft standard about transforming between XML namespaces: > > http://portonsoft.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/automatic-namespaces/ > > http://freesoft.portonvictor.org/binaries/Namespace_Semantic.html All that absolute positioning in the HTML makes it somewhat to totally illegible. Starting with 1.7.1 the XML and the comments are overlaid, at least when reading it with Chrome. The phrase "All rights reserved" has no legal magic any more, and just confuses people in connection with a free license. See http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/law-copyright-all-rights-reserved.html for details. -- John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan .e'osai ko sarji la lojban. Please support Lojban! http://www.lojban.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324234.html David Lee scripsit: > * Was there a legacy/historic (SGML?) reason why documents needed to be > tagged from the very beginning in order to parse tags at all ? (A kind of > inline file header/type/magic number ?) In SGML there is a partial disconnect between element structure (which is the same as in XML) and tagging. SGML parsers can leverage the DTD, which must be present, in order to deduce where missing end-tags and even start-tags must be. For example, if C elements are found only within B elements, then a <C> tag not inside a B element will cause the parser to infer a <B> tag. Similarly, if I tags cannot contain P tags, a </P> within an I element will cause the </I> tag to be inferred. This is done in a hard-wired way in HTML parsers, but in SGML parsers the DTD explicitly says which tags of which elements can be omitted. The only thing an SGML parser can't always infer is what the root element should be, which is why DOCTYPE declarations specify the root element. In XML, they still do in the name of backward compatibility, even though all element structure has to be explicitly tagged in XML. -- "Repeat this until 'update-mounts -v' shows no updates. John Cowan You may well have to log in to particular machines, hunt down cowan@ccil.org people who still have processes running, and kill them." _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324233.html That's right - it comes with the broadening of a "school" of thought/markup into an accepted part of a "discipline", then finally a "standard" way of approaching texts (new or old). Although my point about classical Latin/Greek and Christian text preservation in the "Western Tradition" was a bit of fun and interest for me, it's actually illustrative of the fact that until (very) there was in fact very little opportunity to radically revise and transform texts (deliberately and without fear of forever losing the original) the way we do with printing, copying and digital methods. Hence there was a very niche market for "languages" like this (one could argue it's still fairly niche)... but as Toby says at length, identifying and relating documentary entities (according to your point of view!) is an old, old business. The languages existed and were actually reasonably formal (when needed, e.g. explaining to Martin Luther that the "Holy Table of Contents" ;) was not up for debate)... Well, you can take this train of thought as far as you like, as formally as you like, and in very disparate spheres of interest - note that the use cases result in very different "styles" and "forms" of markup: http://www.editeur.org/files/Collaborations/Publications/Publishers%20Requirements%20for%20Identifying%20Components%20-%20an%20EDItEUR%20discussion%20paper.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1201/1201.0385.pdf http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/canon/ http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sokolov [mailto:sokolov@ifactory.com] Sent: 20 January 2012 14:36 To: Michael Hopwood Cc: dlee@calldei.com; xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Text Markup Part II I think there's another important piece here, which is defining an entire vocabulary; a little mini-language, so you could have the concepts of validity, and some meta-document (dtd, schema, what have you) for defining the tags within that vocabulary. You can't do that if you just say, let tags appear wherever. The root element (along w/DOCTYPE) seems to have acted as a label for that. That method for identifying a vocabulary is definitely an historic artifact, but you'd have to have *some* mechanism for it that would be sort-of global to a document. -Mike On 01/20/2012 07:14 AM, Michael Hopwood wrote: >>>> What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between what appears to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only the later. >>>> > Actually, and for a very long time before it became "cool" ;) to talk about this, it's really only been the latter, except that the "markup" for the rest of the document is implicit. Adding a "root" tag for the whole document simply formalises and makes machine-readable (although you could have done this a variety of other ways, like filename extensions) what "documentalists" of all kinds have been doing for a very long time; (more or less formally) identifying integral units of documentation. > > A MARC21 serialisation has message headers to separate different catalogue records in the stream - those are short documents, generally, although they can potentially get very long. And every element, as well as the whole thing, is marked up. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to > support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the > archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: > http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324232.html This is exactly right. It merely makes explicit the implicit document boundaries. Consider a piece of fiction, containing no references, no need to index, just a text, and pre-dating any notion of XML. It likely has chapters - in any case, a structure that did not acknowledge the notion of chapters would be poor. Consider the corpus "Harry Potter". Any one book could get away without a container, but it is a set of seven books. A wrapper for each book (call it a "cover") is natural and expected. Now transmit it as one set of text. The covers are still useful. Go to the ancient texts you mentioned. In the Judeo-Christian traditional texts, there are multiple "books". There a five books in the oldest collection, the Pentateuch. These are handled as a book of books. Most such collections include 34 other books in the Hebrew bible. Sometimes they are themselves classified as several other books of books, sometimes not. Some consider each Psalm to be a book. Similarly there are 22 books in the New Testament, the part written in Greek and Latin . These 66 books are often arranged into books: Pentateuch, History, Books of Poetry, Major Prophets, Minor Prophets, Gospels, Church History, Pauline Epistles, General Epistles, Revelation. AN alternate arrangement produces a different set of books of books: Law, History, Wisdom, Prophets Major and Minor, History, Letters. Still another tradition arranges the books into Law, Warriors, Judges, Kings, Prophets, Kingdom. These Books are themselves bound into books with names similar to Old Testament and New Testament. Within those collections, there are a few disputes as to which Book a given Book belongs in. There are 15 more Hebrew books of which the 12 are bound in another book named the Apocrypha in Roman Catholic Tradition. It is interesting that the western Jewish tradition leans on a festival derived from two of the Apocrypha, even though none of the Apocrypha is accepted in the Jewish Bible. Many other "Books" named the :Bible" have included other "Books" including still other Books" Which is a long way of saying that these texts have always had a container, and modern approaches, of containing them all, simply acknowledge them. Similar descriptions could encircle Gilgamesh, or the Upanishads, of the Mayan Codices. Or any autho fro whome the "Collected Works" have been published. "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery Toby Considine TC9, Inc TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop U.S. National Inst. of Standards and Tech. Smart Grid Architecture Committee    Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com Phone: (919)619-2104 http://www.tcnine.com/ blog: www.NewDaedalus.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael Hopwood [mailto:michael@editeur.org] Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 7:14 AM To: dlee@calldei.com; xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Text Markup Part II >>> What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between what appears to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only the later. Actually, and for a very long time before it became "cool" ;) to talk about this, it's really only been the latter, except that the "markup" for the rest of the document is implicit. Adding a "root" tag for the whole document simply formalises and makes machine-readable (although you could have done this a variety of other ways, like filename extensions) what "documentalists" of all kinds have been doing for a very long time; (more or less formally) identifying integral units of documentation. A MARC21 serialisation has message headers to separate different catalogue records in the stream - those are short documents, generally, although they can potentially get very long. And every element, as well as the whole thing, is marked up. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324231.html New draft standard about transforming between XML namespaces: http://portonsoft.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/automatic-namespaces/ http://freesoft.portonvictor.org/binaries/Namespace_Semantic.html This is a very rough draft, and I'm not sure that it is readable, but I want to inform you about my work as early as possible. Is what I wrote insofar readable? Any other comments are welcome. -- Victor Porton - http://portonvictor.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324230.html I think there's another important piece here, which is defining an entire vocabulary; a little mini-language, so you could have the concepts of validity, and some meta-document (dtd, schema, what have you) for defining the tags within that vocabulary. You can't do that if you just say, let tags appear wherever. The root element (along w/DOCTYPE) seems to have acted as a label for that. That method for identifying a vocabulary is definitely an historic artifact, but you'd have to have *some* mechanism for it that would be sort-of global to a document. -Mike On 01/20/2012 07:14 AM, Michael Hopwood wrote: >>>> What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between what appears to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only the later. >>>> > Actually, and for a very long time before it became "cool" ;) to talk about this, it's really only been the latter, except that the "markup" for the rest of the document is implicit. Adding a "root" tag for the whole document simply formalises and makes machine-readable (although you could have done this a variety of other ways, like filename extensions) what "documentalists" of all kinds have been doing for a very long time; (more or less formally) identifying integral units of documentation. > > A MARC21 serialisation has message headers to separate different catalogue records in the stream - those are short documents, generally, although they can potentially get very long. And every element, as well as the whole thing, is marked up. > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324229.html On 19 January 2012 14:48, David Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote: > "Why is text marked up" ? How about: "to separate the optional from the mandatory" In pretty much all my uses of markup, the annotations are hints, like "make this text big", "this bit is in Italian" and they are very useful, often but I can pretty much always choose to ignore them. The core text is the essence, the actual content. While elegant, that's merely the theory. In practice markup very often defines the message (medium is the message). Human brains have not developed in a vacuum and amygdala's primal impulses still override they gray stuff often. So a big, bold sign in RED which say "It's OK" will still be a warning, it'll make you think, is it really? So another good explanation would be: "to convey more information than the text alone can" That's why markup is as important as the text itself and that's why there is value added in marking it up and how many on this lists manage to scrape a living off marking up text. Lech _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324228.html >>> What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between what appears to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only the later. Actually, and for a very long time before it became "cool" ;) to talk about this, it's really only been the latter, except that the "markup" for the rest of the document is implicit. Adding a "root" tag for the whole document simply formalises and makes machine-readable (although you could have done this a variety of other ways, like filename extensions) what "documentalists" of all kinds have been doing for a very long time; (more or less formally) identifying integral units of documentation. A MARC21 serialisation has message headers to separate different catalogue records in the stream - those are short documents, generally, although they can potentially get very long. And every element, as well as the whole thing, is marked up. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324227.html Thanks all for the thoughtful comments. The next question (you didn't think I'd stop there !) "Why use a an XML Syntax for entire documents ?" What I'm getting at is that there seems to be either a transition, some tipping point, or perhaps a wholly new approach/idea that instead of just "marking up text" we should transform the entire document into a new syntax. The edge case of this is requiring putting a root element around every document. (in HTML or XML etc ...) It's not good enough that there is markup *within* a text but now we find ourselves having to actually transform the text into a new syntax. Thus we see things like Docbook, TEI , DITTA , XHTML ... and a slow progression into even the Data realm where everything is tagged and there is no mixed or free text. My question here is : * Was there a slow transition of adding markup then some kind of "Ah Ha!" moment where people realized they needed/should wrap the whole thing in a tag ? * Was there a legacy/historic (SGML?) reason why documents needed to be tagged from the very beginning in order to parse tags at all ? (A kind of inline file header/type/magic number ?) * Was there a natural evolution from tagging little bits of text to the point where it was felt that all of it should be tagged ? Or perhaps there were cross-purposes from different camps ? What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental rational between what appears to be two extremes not necessarily compatible, and why we ended up with only the later. A) "Marking up bits of text where needed" And B) "A full text markup vocabulary for encoding an entire document" My 'gut feeling' on this, not having been privy to the entire history ... is that it was an artifact of processing. That (it was felt that) processors simply needed to detect the *possibility of markup* within text at the start of a document and thats how we ended up wrapping the whole thing in a root element , thus crossing the threshold from "A document with marked up text" to "A Markup formatted/schema based document for encoding text". Comments ? Again thanks for your patience. ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324226.html After the fall of the roman empire, a lot of know culture was sort of "lost". But not everywhere or completelly. In spain, cristian monks and moors where copying old books from Aristotele and Platon. The point of copying was to recreate new copies, not modified versions. Anotations where needed, sometimes, because these text where written in latin, while the copier and the readers would use modern versions of latin, so reading the original text was hard. In some cases cristian moonks would copy books preserved by the moors, and probably remove any moor anotation, and add his own. Some sort of cooperative-competitive effort. On 20 January 2012 09:32, Michael Hopwood <michael@editeur.org> wrote: > Hi Mr. Quin, > > I know this is barely an XML question any more, but despite my raw newness to this list I couldn't resist chiming in slightly lightheartedly on this point: > > " a lot of our Western manuscript tradition came out of an idea that there was an Original Text that was Divinely Inspired by the Goddesses, and that could not be improved upon by mortals... " > > I'm sure this attitude may well exist in some form in the "Western manuscript tradition". It's not something I'm very familiar with in my reading of it though, not until very recently in history (fundamentalism) or possible very, very old texts. > I am pretty ignorant about history, but this is what I know: I think in the dark age things like religion, politics, science, etc, where a single thing. The books where the "dogma of the power". Giordona Bruno got burned for writting againt Aristotelian texts. (from the wikipedia) "In October 1585, after the French embassy in London was attacked by a mob, Bruno returned to Paris with Castelnau, finding a tense political situation. Moreover, his 120 theses against Aristotelian natural science and his pamphlets against the mathematician Fabrizio Mordente soon put him in ill favor. In 1586, following a violent quarrel about Mordente's invention, "the differential compass," he left France for Germany." Is not just a religious issue, since power and state was one, so attacking one was attacking the other. Separation of religion and state was not invented yet. Aristotelian natural science was part of the official dogma, and attacking that was atacking the whole. Took centuries for the powers to accept science. The excuse that a text is "Inspired by the Goddesses" sounds like the type of medieval maneuver to flag scientist as "terrorist". It totally fit the era psychology. I don't know if really did. Probably. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324225.html Hi Mr. Quin, I know this is barely an XML question any more, but despite my raw newness to this list I couldn't resist chiming in slightly lightheartedly on this point: " a lot of our Western manuscript tradition came out of an idea that there was an Original Text that was Divinely Inspired by the Goddesses, and that could not be improved upon by mortals... " I'm sure this attitude may well exist in some form in the "Western manuscript tradition". It's not something I'm very familiar with in my reading of it though, not until very recently in history (fundamentalism) or possible very, very old texts. In between I think you can identify 2 more or less distinct strands - one for classical texts like the Greek and Latin poetry, drama, philosophy etc., where the primary concern was simply to preserve in a climate where its value was not taken for granted (which in practical terms meant actively transmit accurately), and the second for religious texts - in the case of Christian ones, actually the flaws and faults of both Old and New Testament were acknowledged at least as early as St. Augustine (he would have preferred a nice, polished Platonic version in his Manichaean days) but yet were scrupulously preserved simply because the texts were venerated for their proximity to historical events (not for their intrinsic "quality"). I think "writing the text better" was something of an aspiration for readers and writers down the ages, but only in the modern era (I use the term very broadly!) has it become any kind of possibility. That's partly why all the documentary history conspiracy "thrillers" now popular are so funny ;0) Cheers, Michael -----Original Message----- From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org] Sent: 19 January 2012 17:29 To: dlee@calldei.com Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Why is text marked up ? On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 08:48 -0500, David Lee wrote: [...] > "Why is text marked up" ? Mark-up in retail increases the selling price. Mark-up in texts increases the value. "why not just write the text better" - a lot of our Western manuscript tradition came out of an idea that there was an Original Text that was Divinely Inspired by the Goddesses, and that could not be improved upon by mortals; the task of the humans was to understand these sacred texts, so that a commentary had to distinguish clearly the original and the expansion. Having said that, some of the necessary apparatus to do that is very modern; there are no quotation marks in the 1611 King James Bible, and the start and end of reported text is often unclear. Bibles sometimes print the "sayings of Jesus" in red, but they don't necessarily all print the _same_ text in red. This is because the concept of the "q" element was not available at the time ;-) Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324224.html Not sure what your point is here. Could you elaborate ? Don't use markups ? Don't use big files ? Don't trust technology ? Sent from my iPad (excuse the terseness) David A Lee dlee@calldei.com On Jan 19, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Alex Muir <alex.g.muir@gmail.com> wrote: > > To add some named pointers to the document and then pull it into memory extravagantly enabling rapid analysis via script development with xslt and regex to get "it" done, faster....happy with it until you run out of memory and can't find the syntax error in a huge document when editing the file ever so slowly. > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Henry S. Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > To make explicit for mechanical processing what is > implicit-but-evident in the original. > > -- > Alex Muir > Instructor | Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building > University of the Gambia > http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/ > > Low budget software development benefiting development in the Gambia, West Africa > Experience of a lifetime, come to Gambia and Join UTSWEB - http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/ > > >]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324222.html To add some named pointers to the document and then pull it into memory extravagantly enabling rapid analysis via script development with xslt and regex to get "it" done, faster....happy with it until you run out of memory and can't find the syntax error in a huge document when editing the file ever so slowly. On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Henry S. Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > To make explicit for mechanical processing what is > implicit-but-evident in the original. > -- Alex Muir Instructor | Program Organizer - University Technology Student Work Experience Building University of the Gambia http://sites.utg.edu.gm/alex/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/> Low budget software development benefiting development in the Gambia, West Africa Experience of a lifetime, come to Gambia and Join UTSWEB - http://sites.utg.edu.gm/utsweb/<https://sites.google.com/a/utg.edu.gm/utsweb/>]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324221.html Inflated terms? Left on the floor and the dog gnawed it? :) len _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324220.html Handwritten markup employs a variety of conventions, anything from "write it in red so it stands out [and terrorizes the student, as an added bonus]" to "employ standard proofreading symbols." But it is, by definition, handwritten. There are printed markups, as well, which amount to book designers' attempts to make various information that bears on a text accessible but not intrusive. E.g., a little degree-symbol by a word means you should look at the footer for a definition of that word (common in editions of Shakespeare); or the much more elaborate conventions used in the textual apparatus of the UBS text of the Greek New Testament; or the way cross-references are indicated in Bibles with cross-references. It is when you want machines to be able to read markup that the preceding techniques stop working, and you markup your text with SGML or XML or HTML or some such. This is harder for humans but easier for machines to read. Which doesn't mean humans can't read it. So: yes and no. One only adopts a strict character-sequence-based markup language out of deference to machines. But one sometimes might employ it with the intention to have people read it. Norm > -----Original Message----- > From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:17 PM > To: 'davep'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org > Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Why is text marked up ? > > This is the most succinct to date ... but I suggest there are non- > mechanical reasons for markup as well. Markup in a real sense > simulates the "pen on paper" 'markup' used by editors, historians, > students etc in traditional non-mechanical worlds ... > > So I question: > > "Is Markup ONLY for mechanical/machine purposes ?" > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > David A. Lee > dlee@calldei.com > http://www.xmlsh.org > > -----Original Message----- > From: davep [mailto:davep@dpawson.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:02 PM > To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Why is text marked up ? > > > On 01/19/2012 04:58 PM, Henry S. Thompson wrote: > > David Lee writes: > > > >> "Why is text marked up" ? > > To make explicit for mechanical processing what is > > implicit-but-evident in the original. > > > > ht > I think that sums up quite a few uses? > Misses metadata, but includes such as toc links, > indexing, formatting for presentation, filtering, > selection/re-organisation etc. > Very succinct Henry. > > regards > > -- > Dave Pawson > XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. > http://www.dpawson.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324218.html On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 14:16 -0500, David Lee wrote: > "Is Markup ONLY for mechanical/machine purposes ?" No. Human-readable annotations,vinsert/delete marks, glosses, references (links) are all examples of mark-up for humans. -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ The barefoot typorapher _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324217.html This is the most succinct to date ... but I suggest there are non-mechanical reasons for markup as well. Markup in a real sense simulates the "pen on paper" 'markup' used by editors, historians, students etc in traditional non-mechanical worlds ... So I question: "Is Markup ONLY for mechanical/machine purposes ?" ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@dpawson.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:02 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Why is text marked up ? On 01/19/2012 04:58 PM, Henry S. Thompson wrote: > David Lee writes: > >> "Why is text marked up" ? > To make explicit for mechanical processing what is > implicit-but-evident in the original. > > ht I think that sums up quite a few uses? Misses metadata, but includes such as toc links, indexing, formatting for presentation, filtering, selection/re-organisation etc. Very succinct Henry. regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. http://www.dpawson.co.uk _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324216.html On 01/19/2012 04:58 PM, Henry S. Thompson wrote: > David Lee writes: > >> "Why is text marked up" ? > To make explicit for mechanical processing what is > implicit-but-evident in the original. > > ht I think that sums up quite a few uses? Misses metadata, but includes such as toc links, indexing, formatting for presentation, filtering, selection/re-organisation etc. Very succinct Henry. regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. http://www.dpawson.co.uk _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324215.html On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 08:48 -0500, David Lee wrote: [...] > "Why is text marked up" ? Mark-up in retail increases the selling price. Mark-up in texts increases the value. "why not just write the text better" - a lot of our Western manuscript tradition came out of an idea that there was an Original Text that was Divinely Inspired by the Goddesses, and that could not be improved upon by mortals; the task of the humans was to understand these sacred texts, so that a commentary had to distinguish clearly the original and the expansion. Having said that, some of the necessary apparatus to do that is very modern; there are no quotation marks in the 1611 King James Bible, and the start and end of reported text is often unclear. Bibles sometimes print the "sayings of Jesus" in red, but they don't necessarily all print the _same_ text in red. This is because the concept of the "q" element was not available at the time ;-) Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324214.html Philip Fennell scripsit: > We mark-up to add information. I think that's the answer. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Female celebrity stalker, on a hot morning in Cairo: "Imagine, Colonel Lawrence, ninety-two already!" El Auruns's reply: "Many happy returns of the day!" _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324213.html David, Another form of / reason for markup that you can add to your list is the proof reader marks - markup for actions. Here too you will find special symbols, not in the conventional character sets that identify errors and omissions and the actions to be performed. In this case they are added to plain text purely as a set of annotations to instruct the type-setter on the changes that are needed. We mark-up to add information. In the modern age we are somewhat restricted to the readily available character sets our computers provide and are therefore stuck with the somewhat esoteric wiki markup languages. I don't think you can readily draw a distinction between human and machine readable markup as both types of consumer can be regarded as agents that process the annotations according to previously understood rules. Whether they can do it efficiently is a different matter, that's a question of implementation. I'd venture to say that mark-up for the purpose of extending meaning, suggesting presentation or communicating actions are all done almost as a form of multiplexing where you are sending, in effect, multiple messages via a common medium. It is up to the consumer as to which parts you take notice of and act on according to your original intention in requesting it. Regards Philip I think that one important reason for markup is that the language/character-set used do not, natively, have the facility to express -----Original Message----- From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:48 PM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: [xml-dev] Why is text marked up ? I'm doing some research and thinking and have a serious but seemingly stupid question. If you don't want to bother with a possible hypothetical thread skip now ... "Why is text marked up" ? I think I know most of the answers, but that's the problem ! I know enough to not ask, which means I probably don't know. This question has several variants ... I'd like to propose what I think I know and would love those with patience and interest to comment. First off, I'm only interested (in this discussion) to "Text Markup" ... that is NOT data representations that happen to use "markup syntax". But rather, starting with "Plain Text" and adding "Markup" to it for some reason. Historical Manuscripts. There's a lot of markup used in the Manuscript world (which I am least familiar). In this case "Text" is not the original, but written word was. With Historical Manuscripts (like with archeology) there is a strong reason to separate "the original" from "annotation". Otherwise in many cases the text would just be rewritten to be clearer. So I suggest Markup is used in this context . * To annotate information missing from the transcription but visible in the written manuscript * To apply metadata only implicitly known (such as author, where found, condition) * To apply inference from a scholar (e.g. "John" really refers to "John the Baptist" ... ) * To make the original text easier to understand by today's reader (or a reader without the visual clues of the original) Overall I believe this is done to add information either lost by the transcription, or added by a scholar. Is there other reasons ? Linguistic Analysis In this case markup is used on text (either transcribed or original) to aid in linguistic analysis. E.g. * To identify meaning (noun , verb, phonons etc.) Publication / Presentation This is the most common (to me) use of text markup. Adding markup to indicate structure and presentation intended for publication of text. In a sense this is the reversal of the transcription process of manuscripts (!?) ... To prepare 'plain text' so it can be presented. * Add structure so text can be segmented (paragraph, chapter, heading etc.) * Add structure so text can be typographically presented (bold, italic, font etc. ) (Skip for a moment the distinction between semantic and presentation markup ... its coming) But now the big question. "Why?" And the ancillary "What/Whom is the intended audience of the markup?" There are many answers of course. I'll suggest a few * To add meaning for *human* readers - which coincidentally is machine readable ---> Is this ever really done ? * To add meaning solely for computers to aid in searching / repackaging / semantic analysis * To add presentational meaning where the end result is intended to be 'published' in some other media (print, web etc.) To conclude ... I'd love a discussion (if you're willing and happy !) about this. "Why markup text? " - corollary "Why not just write the text better ?" "Are the purposes consistent with each other ?" "Is choice of a consistent markup technology/syntax a good or bad thing ?" "Do you believe others think the same as you ?" and "Do they ?" Thanks for your patience and insight. ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324212.html my 2 cents: > "Why is text marked up" ? Annotate things, ...add metadata to a document. And presentation, than in some cases can be just a type of metadata. > "To add meaning for *human* readers - which coincidentally is machine readable" ---> Is this ever really done ? Yes for humans experts in the trade, not for the average joe that will look at something like XML and feel is randomized letters withouth any meaning. > "Why not just write the text better ?" Because it pay to have the original message simple, and pay to have the metadata sort of "optional" so can be ignored. Then if you edit the original message, is not the original message anymore, and this is important for humans: contracts, tax declarations, etc... modifying a signed document make it "void", because is untrue that what the signed document shows is what what signed. But with tags you can "embed" the original document as a facsimile, then add anything you need. -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324211.html I'm doing some research and thinking and have a serious but seemingly stupid question. If you don't want to bother with a possible hypothetical thread skip now ... "Why is text marked up" ? I think I know most of the answers, but that's the problem ! I know enough to not ask, which means I probably don't know. This question has several variants ... I'd like to propose what I think I know and would love those with patience and interest to comment. First off, I'm only interested (in this discussion) to "Text Markup" ... that is NOT data representations that happen to use "markup syntax". But rather, starting with "Plain Text" and adding "Markup" to it for some reason. Historical Manuscripts. There's a lot of markup used in the Manuscript world (which I am least familiar). In this case "Text" is not the original, but written word was. With Historical Manuscripts (like with archeology) there is a strong reason to separate "the original" from "annotation". Otherwise in many cases the text would just be rewritten to be clearer. So I suggest Markup is used in this context . * To annotate information missing from the transcription but visible in the written manuscript * To apply metadata only implicitly known (such as author, where found, condition) * To apply inference from a scholar (e.g. "John" really refers to "John the Baptist" ... ) * To make the original text easier to understand by today's reader (or a reader without the visual clues of the original) Overall I believe this is done to add information either lost by the transcription, or added by a scholar. Is there other reasons ? Linguistic Analysis In this case markup is used on text (either transcribed or original) to aid in linguistic analysis. E.g. * To identify meaning (noun , verb, phonons etc.) Publication / Presentation This is the most common (to me) use of text markup. Adding markup to indicate structure and presentation intended for publication of text. In a sense this is the reversal of the transcription process of manuscripts (!?) ... To prepare 'plain text' so it can be presented. * Add structure so text can be segmented (paragraph, chapter, heading etc.) * Add structure so text can be typographically presented (bold, italic, font etc. ) (Skip for a moment the distinction between semantic and presentation markup ... its coming) But now the big question. "Why?" And the ancillary "What/Whom is the intended audience of the markup?" There are many answers of course. I'll suggest a few * To add meaning for *human* readers - which coincidentally is machine readable ---> Is this ever really done ? * To add meaning solely for computers to aid in searching / repackaging / semantic analysis * To add presentational meaning where the end result is intended to be 'published' in some other media (print, web etc.) To conclude ... I'd love a discussion (if you're willing and happy !) about this. "Why markup text? " - corollary "Why not just write the text better ?" "Are the purposes consistent with each other ?" "Is choice of a consistent markup technology/syntax a good or bad thing ?" "Do you believe others think the same as you ?" and "Do they ?" Thanks for your patience and insight. ---------------------------------------- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324210.html (Please accept our apologies if you receive multiple copies of this message) ################################################################# IEEE WETICE 2012 3rd IEEE Track on Collaborative Modeling and Simulation (Comets 2012) in cooperation with AFIS (INCOSE France Chapter) MIMOS (Italian Association for M&S) CALL FOR PAPERS ################################################################# June 25-27, 2012, Toulouse (France) http://www.sel.uniroma2.it/comets12 ################################################################# # Papers Due: March 16, 2012 # Accepted papers will be published in the conference proceedings # by the IEEE Computer Society Press and indexed by EI. ################################################################# Modeling and Simulation (M&S) is increasingly becoming a central activity in the design of new systems and in the analysis of existing systems because it enables designers and researchers to investigate systems behavior through virtual representations. For this reason, M&S is gaining a primary role in many industrial and research fields, such as space, critical infrastructures, manufacturing, emergency management, biomedical systems and sustainable future. However, as the complexity of the investigated systems increases and the types of investigations widens, the cost of M&S activities increases for the more complex models and for the communications among a wider number and variety of M&S stakeholders (e.g., sub-domain experts, simulator users, simulator engineers, and final system users). To address the increasing costs of M&S activities, collaborative technologies must be introduced to support these activities by fostering the sharing and reuse of models, by facilitating the communications among M&S stakeholders, and more generally by integrating processes, tools and platforms. Aside from seeking applications of collaborative technologies to M&S activities, the track seeks innovative contributions that deal with the application of M&S practices to the design of collaborative environments. These environments are continuously becoming more complex, and therefore their design requires systematic approaches to meet the required quality of collaboration. This is important for two reasons: to reduce rework activities on the actual collaborative environment, and to maximize the productivity and the quality of the process the collaborative environment supports. M&S offers the methodologies and tools for such investigations and therefore it can be used to improve the quality of collaborative environments. A non–exhaustive list of topics of interest includes: * collaborative environments for M&S * collaborative Systems of Systems M&S * workflow modelling for collaborative environments and processes * agent-based M&S * collaborative distributed simulation * collaborative component-based M&S * net-centric M&S * web-based M&S * model sharing and reuse * model building and evaluation * modeling and simulation of business processes * modeling for collaboration * simulation-based performance evaluation of collaborative networks * model-driven simulation engineering * domain specific languages for the simulation of collaborative environments * domain specific languages for collaborative M&S * databases and repositories for M&S * distributed virtual environments * virtual research environment for M&S * collaborative DEVS M&S To stimulate creativity, however, the track maintains a wider scope and invites interested researchers to present contributions that offer original perspectives on collaboration and M&S. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On-Line Submissions and Publication +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CoMetS'12 intends to bring together researchers and practitioners to discuss key issues, approaches, open problems, innovative applications and trends in the track research area. This year, we will accept submissions in two forms: (1) papers (2) poster and industrial presentations (1) Papers should contain original contributions not published or submitted elsewhere. Papers up to six pages (including figures, tables and references) can be submitted. Papers should follow the IEEE format, which is single spaced, two columns, 10 pt Times/Roman font. All submissions should be electronic (in PDF) and will be peer-reviewed by at least three program committee members. Accepted full papers will be included in the proceedings and published by the IEEE Computer Society Press (IEEE approval pending). Please note that at least one author for each accepted paper should register to attend WETICE 2012 (http://www.wetice.org) to have the paper published in the proceedings. (2) Posters should describe a practical, on-the-field, experience in any domain area using collaborative M&S. The poster submission requires the submission of an abstract for evaluation from the organizers. Accepted abstract must be followed by the submission of a poster which will be displayed at conference time. With the poster submission, a short (15 minutes) slot might be allocated for oral presentation illustrating the industrial case. The presentation may also include a live demo, but it should not include commercial details. Interested authors and participants may contact the organizers for expression of interests and content appropriateness at any time. Papers and posters can be submitted in PDF format at the submission site (https://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=comets2012), which is supported by the EasyChair conference management system. Please feel free to contact the track chairs (comets2012@easychair.org) if you experience problems with the EasyChair Web site. +++++++++++++++ Important Dates +++++++++++++++ * Submission Deadline: March 16, 2012 * Decision to paper authors: April 16, 2012 * Camera Ready to IEEE: April 30, 2012 * Conference dates: June 25 - June 27, 2012 ++++++++++++++++++++ Organizing Committee ++++++++++++++++++++ * Andrea D'Ambrogio, University of Roma TorVergata, Italy * Daniele Gianni, European Space Agency, The Netherlands * Joachim Fuchs, European Space Agency, The Netherlands * Giuseppe Iazeolla, University of Roma TorVergata, Italy +++++++++++++++++ Program Committee +++++++++++++++++ * Santiago Balestrini, Georgia Institute of Technology, USA * Massimo Bandecchi, European Space Agency, The Netherlands * Joseph Giampapa, SEI, Carnegie Mellon University, USA * Alain Kerbrat, CollESys - AFIS, France * Axel Lehmann, Universitaet der Bundeswehr Muenchen, Germany * Cristiano Leorato, Rhea, The Netherlands * Steve McKeever, University of Oxford, UK * David Nickerson, Auckland Bioengineering Institute, NZ * Alfred Park, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, USA * Wolfgang Prinz, Fraunhofer FIT and RWTH Aachen, Germany * José L. Risco-Martin, Universidad Complutense de Madrid, Spain * Jean-Francois Santucci, University of Corsica, France * Gabriel Wainer, Carleton University, Canada * Quirien Wijnand, European Space Agency, The Netherlands * Heming Zhang, Tsinghua University, China *** Contact Information *** Daniele Gianni (track co-chair) Email: danielegmail-comets@yahoo.it _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324207.html It's a new year and time to plan for Balisage 2012! Balisage is where people interested in descriptive markup meet each year in August for informed technical discussion, occasionally impassioned debate, good coffee, and the incomparable ambience of one of North America's greatest cities, Montreal. We welcome anyone interested in discussing the use of descriptive markup to build strong, lasting information systems. Practitioner or theorist, tool-builder or tool-user, student or lecturer -- you are invited to submit a paper proposal for Balisage 2012. As always, papers at Balisage can address any aspect of the use of markup and markup languages to represent information and build information systems. Possible topics include but are not limited to: * XML and related technologies * Non-XML markup languages * Implementation experience with XML parsing, XSLT processors, XQuery processors, XML databases, Topic Map engines, XProc integrations, or any markup-related technology * Semantics, overlap, and other complex fundamental issues for markup languages * Case studies of markup design and deployment * Quality of information in markup systems * JSON and XML * Efficiency of Markup Software * Markup systems in and for the mobile web * The future of XML and of descriptive markup in general * Interesting applications of markup In addition, please consider becoming a Peer Reviewer. Reviewers play a critical role towards the success of Balisage. They review blind submissions -- on topics that interest them -- for technical merit, interest, and applicability. Your comments and recommendations can assist the Conference Committee in creating the program for Balisage 2012! How: * Submit full papers in XML to <info@balisage.net> * See the Instructions for Authors (http://www.balisage.net/authorinstructions.html) and Tag Set and Submission Guidelines (http://www.balisage.net/tagset.html) for details. * Apply to the Peer Review panel (http://www.balisage.net/peer/ReviewAppForm.html) Schedule: 16 March 2012 - Peer review applications due 20 April 2012 - Paper submissions due 20 April 2012 - Applications due for student support awards due 28 May 2012 - Speakers notified 13 July 2012 - Final papers due 6 August 2012 - Pre-conference Symposium 7-10 August 2012 - Balisage: The Markup Conference Help us make Balisage your favorite XML Conference. See you in Montreal! -- The Balisage 2012 Conference Committee ====================================================================== Balisage: The Markup Conference 2012 mailto:info@balisage.net August 7-10, 2012 http://www.balisage.net Preconference Symposium on August 6, 2012 ====================================================================== _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php]]> http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201201/msg1000324205.html On 06/01/12 15:46, Cox, Bruce wrote: > When developing our Reference Document Management Service, we asked the editors. The problem we faced when developing the original search interface for the CELT documents (celt.ucc.ie) was identifying whom to satisfy. Now (20 years on), we know more about the user population and their requirements, but it was assumed at the start that returning adequate context would be essential. The original interface is no longer available (I have it on a SunOS 4.1.3 system disk that won't boot, and somewhere on a chain of 50 QIC tapes, so I will retrieve it one day :-) The documents are transcriptions of early manuscripts, varying from continuous narrative (very long "paragraphs") to annals where an entry may be a TEI <p> element containing two words. Because we were using an SGML search tool (PAT), and the documents are well-marked with numbering systems and milestones, retrieving a fully-formed reference for each hit was, if not trivial, at least straightforward, so we could peg each hit as occurring in entry x at date y in para z and upwards through the chain of folios, pages, sections, etc. But that still left us with the problem of what context and how much context to display. A large amount of the text was very heavily marked with critical and analytical apparatus, with character data occurring (in extreme cases) up to 11 levels deep -- more if it was in a document embedded inside another, such as a letter quoted in its entirety. We used a crude dividing line between mixed content and element content: regardless of how deep the hit occurred, identify the closest ancestor which occurred in element content; if there was at least one sibling of the same type which contained character data (no matter how deep), then go no further; otherwise take the parent and try again. For display, the target content was stripped of markup and the first hit within it measured for its distance in characters from the start of its element-content ancestor container and the distance either side to the nearest sentence boundary (if such a thing was discernible). Ellipses were used to truncate fore and aft if necessary, so that no context more than (I think) 50 words would appear -- but in measuring this, we *did* trespass across parent boundaries when the hit was very close to the start or end of its element-content ancestor container, because the preceding or following element was regarded as important for the context. Extra conditions were applied when the hit was in an embedded document as mentioned above, so that it could be seen to be such; and for the occasional very small single-paragraph document (usually manuscript fragments). This seemed to work, and allowed scholars (the primary audience) to find the words they were looking for and easily discard those hits which weren't relevant for their purpose. It was also pretty slow, being coded in early CGI script form. PAT provided sub-second retrieval, but the subsequent poking around really chewed up the time. It failed miserably when it became clear that a large number of accesses were coming from Irish Americans (and others) searching for their family names, not realising that they would not occur in a recognisable form in 8th century Latin or Irish (and sometimes turning up words whose spelling was liable to be misconstrued if taken out of context :-) It was abandoned when we realised that the actual goal of the scholars was to identify the documents they wanted, and then download them for local use or just read them in their entirety in their browser. A lot of users did like seeing exactly where a hit occurred: it gave them confidence that the system was doing something meaningful and sensible; but the net result was always finding the right documents and reading or downloading them. We could have saved ourselves a lot of time by using grep on the stripped text :-) but, hey, it was a learning curve. Moral: identify the use cases first :-) ///Peter _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelin